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@lume:
[quote]I probably wasn’t clear on this. I meant, just because it was stolen doesn’t mean it wasn’t modified. Somehow.[/quote]
No they don’t. Antefalken gives a rather comprehensive explanation of how they do it. They just open a gate and took objects in. No more, no less.
[quote]They may not be able to so formal spells like a wizard or like a higher-ranked demon but they still managed to do things that defy our physics. It must be something, so why not magic? It is also suggested that the energy / animus that demons are is part of magic and they can manipulate it somewhat so perhaps demons are partly magic & have an instinctive rather than conscious control over it.[/quote]
In this world magic is manipulation of mana. Almost all of the demons can’t manipulate mana. Those who do is very few and are very powerful.
[quote]Oh, I know it was a hand wave, but we also know that fireballs ignite, explode, and contract in mid-air after coming out of nothing. Why can’t the “laws of physics” may be made up in this realm? Although they wouldn’t hold together if subjected to a logical analysis but they may also be held together by the demons’ will even if it isn’t a conscious effort.[/quote]
There is a flaw in this. There are many wills. If the physics is really made up then why do the physics there very homogeneous? Since physics depends on the will why don’t physics become different at the different part of the Abyss? Why don’t one will to turn off gravity. Will it so that it won’t stench. Or will that those buildings don’t collapse (the Court is litered with it)? Why? The only reason why is because they can’t will it at all.
[quote]Would this include military grade equipment with it higher tolerances?[/quote]
So there is militaty grade [b]silk[/b] now? Or military grade [b]wood[/b]? Don’t tell me there is military grade wine? Your kidding right?
[quote]Can the matter of an item be changed as it is brought though even if the visual is unchanged?[/quote]
So the matter in the wine and other beverages have changed? Water into what? Alcohol into what? Antioxidants into what? Would the wine still be wine if that happens?
[quote]Eh, call it psychic ability or animus ability. Both can be described as mental thought & concentration to affect a change to the world. Call it what you will. However, I do agree that a loss of attention may cause it to fail, but what if it is a case of belief = reality? It isn’t easy to believe something you know to be untrue, but because the demon’s accept that they can pull things over and have it safely endure, it does. However, they also know that living things can’t tolerate the heat for long, so they don’t. Just throwing it out there.[/quote]
That is not the case here, you know that right? Your “what if” isn’t how it works in the book so is invalid argument.
[quote]If there is a formal definition then nope! I was using the term “fluid reality” to describe a situation where what we perceive to be true can be changed. I was deliberately implying god-like powers, super-psychics, and non-material realities. What is a plane? How does it work? How does it differ? These are not really discussed except for the Astral Plane. Maybe the Abyss (Abyss Plane?) is a plane with its own rules and they are subject to change unlike Astlan which may be a fixed plane whose rules cannot be changed.[/quote]
Huh? Are you arguing behind the veil of ambiguity? It isn’t wrong because it has no defined meaning? It has no formal definition so it is correct? What kind of argument is that?
If it was Godlike powers, then God! why don’t they will a chair appear instead of stealing it. Why don’t they wil fresher air. Why don’t they will the streets to be clean. Why don’t they will anything? Answer? Because they can’t.
[quote]Yep! As long as the world is internally consistent I’ll accept it. It doesn’t have to be explained. I know that lampshading doesn’t explain it, but if we have Tom notice the fact, notice that it doesn’t matter, and then move on I’ll be fine and consider the issue resolved because it works within the framework of the story. Of course, he could also look deeper and learn to abuse his knowledge, but there are demons from higher-tech worlds which could have done the same, but it seems didn’t so… who knows?[/quote]
You are contradicting yourself. You say you’ll accept it as long as the world is internally consisitent; but you agree in lampshading. Lampshading is a deliberate spotlighting of inconsistencies then just moving on without explaining it. Often used humorously. Here is a rather more extensive definition of it:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LampshadeHanging
If the author lampshade something then it is accepted that the world is inconsistent and implausible. Since you only accept if the world is consistent, then a work that lampshades should not be acceptable to you.
@Madfox:
The Court changes then confirmed that? Don’t you know that cities constantantly changes? Don’t think that New York City looks the same now as it was hundred years ago? Do City of London in 19th century the same City of London now? Or do you think that every city would remain the same and idenitical through the ages for eternity?
Things constantly changes. It is not surprising that The Court changes… because it should. It is the way things work. I would have been more astounded if The Court of Chaos has remain the same since its founding than finding it changing.
@lume
I don’t really understand how the incredulity of what Madfox is saying escape your attention.
@Tizzy
If what you say was true, then the things they stole should have not worked. Electronics for example uses the physics (electicity, magnetism, light, capacitance, induction, etc.). The piano strings create their sound due to vibrations and the physics that go with it. These things are very much calibrated to the physics they work in. You know how things greatly change when small variations, like how the tone of the piano would change if the tension of the string is changed by a few Nestons. If physics don’t work the same way in the Abyss, then these devices should not work at all because the technology that drives them no longer works.
Just think. How would things change if instead of F=ma its F=1.5ma? Think of how it would have change engineering?
“The Abyss also has relatively easy access to various Planes of Men that Astlan does not. In particular, the Abyss doesn’t seem to care about the physics of various Planes of Men.”
Then why do humans in Astlan need to protect themselves from the heat? Somehow the law of physics apply to them but not to a glass of wine? If the temperature is uncomfortable for a person, then it is not good for the wine, as wine masters would say. If want example of violation of internal physics this should be it.
And I think you would come with a more complicated explanation for this. *sigh*
I mean… come on people. You can’t justify the unjustifiable. Why can’t you accept that the logic is faulty?
In hindsight, my LOLing in the end seems too discourteous. I ask for forgiveness.
Well, it doesn’t really matter anyway. It is enough to know that wizards take control of you with your name.
Is there a way for demons not to respond to wizards when the wizards summon them? A spell or charm of sorts?
[img=http://i.imgbox.com/jVJl56uG.png]Tom demon work in progress[/img]
Yeay! This is a second try my first try got messed up so I scrap it. Still very rough. I’m minding my topologies so as not to messed up again.
I’m still not that experienced in modeling in 3d really and I messed so many times. Been more like experimenting than doing actual work. I try sculpting over this then retopo rather than completely building it by polygonal modeling. Or should I just do traditional poly modeling then just sculpt the fine details? Hmmm. I’ll try both. As I say I’m experimenting.
As you can see, it is not exactly the demon in the book’s cover though I took some ideas from there, especially the horns. The book cover demon looks a bit like a minotaur and I took it to that direction further. I also add a frill on the top of his head to the back of his neck. I was also thinking of scaling down the head to make the figure about 9 heads tall.
Tizzy. You know more about how Tom looks like. Some help? Maybe there should be something I need to change or add? Also what do you think about the wings? Should I make it bigger?
I thought people assume you are crazy, mad, insane. Well, conceited seems to be more awesome than mentaly unsound when your a demon. Though if I was a demon, I liked to be a devious one.
You using big words makes me think that you are more educated/knowledgable than what you seem to be. But why put off a sort of goofy guise?
Yeah. I make a mistake at that one. Holy grail, not the fountain, though the fountain is a macguffin.
And. Uhhh. I think you just become somewhat too conceited!
Well, the two of us seems to be the one who talks much around here. I visit here about twice a week. You are probably the one I conversed with online.
By the way do you have any photos of Tom, Boggy and other demons? Also photos of Rupert, Jenn and other humans. I am trying to make a 3d model of them and some reference would be useful. Well, I could still make my models with the use of my imagination but its a fan art so I need to base my work on existing artwork.
Eh? You don’t do that in a city. A toilet (or the low tech chamber pot) is really needed to not disturb the neighbors.
As for smelly stuff, try thioacetones, ethyl mercaptan and butyl seleno-mercaptan. Or at least try sulfides. Now those are worth running away from.
Well, Christmas has come and go and I wonder: does Astlan has a holiday similar to Christmas? Do they celibrate other holidays and festivals too? I would like to know what festivities Astlanians have and what their dates are and would Tom be able to enjoy of these.
Hmm. Just as I suspect, the demon form is permanent and unchanging literaly. And they don’t experience atrophy!
Well, makes sense. They don’t really have physical bodies. Well, I guess they are pretty stuck with what they have. Makes me feel even more sorry to the first order demons.
Hmm. Taking it from another angle. Well, it seems mana is influenced by the mind and will. Since demons are mana constructs (or so it seems), will a collective mind be able to influence the demons abilities? Say, if a group of wizards are to focus their will into a demon, could they make that demon less powerful? If, yes, that might be a great way to defeat demons, especially the more powerful ones, right? Though, this could also work the other way. A collective will could make a weak demon strong.
That kinda reminds me of the Manga Nurarihyon no Mago:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nura:_Rise_of_the_Yokai_Clan
There they have monster called Yokai. These monsters come to life from human fears. The more people believe in them the stronger they get. If people stop believing in them, they grow weak and even disappear. There is even an arc where a group of monster called The Hundred Tales Clan are spreading scary stories about monsters. When more and more people start believing the stories, the mosnters in the stories become real.
“You need sex as a species to survive so why do so many humans view it as a sin.”
Huh? This is stupid. No one really said that sex is a sin. Well, fornication and adultery., also pedophillia and homosexuality, but not sex.
“I have read many stories where humans are the good guys, but if you are in a world with multiple sentient races and they have all banded together to kill your people, then you are probably not the good guys.”
That does make some sense, however I never have come up much of fiction about multiple sentient races that banded together to kill humans. Well, there are those who kill humans but they never have banded together. Can you tell me a title of a book with this premise?
Well, the quotes rather give the impression that using magic needs intense concentration but there is almost none about magic not needing one. Its the impression that is important. Might have been made clear from the onset.
Jenn and the man situation is also curious. Why would Jenn need to make the spell last longer? I thought the spell was to move the roots and make them bind the enemy. But after that there should be no need for further magic. Roots are quite strong materials by themselves. A man bound in roots is very unlikely to escape. I was also a bit surprised when Jehanna admonished Jenn about leaving the prisoner because what Jenn did is more than enough.
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As for craft, I don’t see how magic reduces the mental effort. Craft requires great focus by themselves, magic also requires mental effort, combine the two and you might as well double the required mental energy. I’m not saying that it makes it impossible, I just say that in general not just the glass table (which is quite a feat) magic in production isn’t really that much of an improvement. Yes they can make better products but that doesn’t mean that the products made by magic is cheaper (incredibly cheap!) than ones made by hand. For all business sense, objects made by magic should have been more expensive, the law of supply and demand and all, not to mention the effort to make them.
“A driver of a car does not have to worry about making sure the pistons are turning, or that gas is flowing into them, or any of the other details of what makes the car go. Same for flying carpets.”
You are really set on the car analogy. A car standing still is very different from a carpet hovering in place. Turn the car off and it would stay in place, not so with carpets.
It may seem easy but hovering in place is quite difficult. Birds can’t even do that where flying is their specialty. Don’t expect that from modern air vehicles (hovering airplanes?). Hellicopters would wobble around when it hovers. The most perfect hovering that I could see with modern crafts are the tiny helicopter robots in many science channels. But then they require lot of processing power and quite sterile surroundings to do so.
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Thaumaturgy. There is some information in the special pages and with the small info there, Thaumaturgy is quite an impressive magic.
You might also confuse payment from profits. For example, matches are quite cheap but millions of it is consumed every day, so even with small profits per match, the huge number consumed would result to very big profits. On the other end, airplanes gives quite large margin of profits, but then the demand for them isn’t really as big, just thousands a year. So, in business sense, even if Thaumaturgy is somewhat lowkey compared to others that shouldn’t be a barrier against big profits.
As for the nobles, they aren’t the only ones who have the money. Even if other people have less wealth than the nobles, their sheer number is more than enough to compensate. That is why in products, like books, how many is sold matters a lot. Authors and publishers would love to make and sell a best selling book. More sold, more profits.
Also even if Thaumaturgy is rather dull compared to other field of magic and is relatively less valued compared to others, that doesn’t mean it has little value. Relative, absolute there is a difference. This coupled with the fact that magic wielders are rare and most it seems doesn’t choose Thaumaturgy. High demand and little supply, and by the law of supply and demand that makes for quite a profitable venture.
I think you should also clear up about the business side of magic wielders if this is going to be important in your book.
