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@Flakes
[quote]What was the problem with Hilda. She was the best part of book 2. She was book 2’s Tom.[/quote]
The problem is, at least for me, is that she has very minor role. Not to mention, she sucks in her role.
And she is far from the best part of the book. That recognition goes to Tom.
[quote]All too often in self published books you get some uber main character who is over powered, who just breezes through the plot with deus ex machina saves and shallow secondary characters.[/quote]
And most are just boring, stupid, badly edited, or just plain crap.
[quote]Making it not entirely about Tom lessens this. So while some of the other sections are boring as fuck, they are still worthwhile.[/quote]
But Hilda is almost the same. As a saint, she is OP. She breezes through the plot with her saintly powers, many which just pop up (deus ex machina), and she is surrounded by shallow secondary characters.@The Author Guy
[quote]Not sure what someone thought was wrong with Hilda.[/quote]
Well, for me, I have two problems about her. One, she has a very small role. So small that I think she fits more as a minor character than a main one. The second is that her scenes are filled with obnoxious details, especially the wines and food. Almost all of her scene includes her babbling about wines. It was interesting the first time, but it gets old and annoying very quick.
[quote]I think the biggest thing that (secretly) annoyed people was that it wasn’t what they were expecting. And that ticked people off.[/quote]
That is not exactly it. Heavenly Host is really just not good and I kinda expect it to be good.
[quote]If one has read this all before, then what’s the point of writing it again?[/quote]
Why not?
[quote]That was my big thought when I was starting this, most fantasy books became like sitcoms, you only need to look at the title, read the blurb and a few chapters and you know where it’s going.[/quote]
Predictability is not a problem. For example, I love Into the Abyss and I read again and again and again.Its already predictable because of my constant re-reading. I know it inside out but I read it again. Why?
Another would be the Romance genre. Everyone knows how it goes. Then, why is it one of the most profitable of all the genre? Why is the most predictable of all type of stories have the most audience?
Triteness is the problem of these copycats. Instead of creating they own twist and touch, they instead do a very halfhearted and lazy rehash of the original.
[quote]And my hope is that some of the more boring parts will start to pay off in later volumes. There are some long setup times…but I don’t like things just pulled out of thin air to solve a problem ‘deus ex machina’ style so I have a lot of setup to explain what happens later, some of that, I admit can be less exciting.[/quote]
The second book essentially bridges the first book to the third book. Instead of telling a story, you are setting things up for the next story. My review is quite spot on. Your enticing us in the first book and you go all out in the third book, but the second book is virtually nothing. It is just a setup, a bridge.@Korwin
[quote]How was Hilda’s part redundant?[/quote]
Most of her scenes where she goes info hunting is not really needed (and she is bad at it). Also, so far, she is still not indespensable. She can still be removed in the narrative and the story can still work.[quote]Can’t agree here, half the book was about the reactions to the battle at the end of Into the Abyss (and yes, I liked to see those reactions. Was enjoying the gloating I did for Tom since he could’nt because not getting Intel about it)[/quote]
I’m talking about Hilda’s info gathering, not the reactions.
[quote]She might not be perfect at Intel gathering, but she’s the best the FoL have.
And you can’t really blame her, she is learning by doing.
It’s not like she has an internship in an spy agency or has an extensive reading habit of spy novels.[/quote]It is not because she is bad at it. It’s because those scenes are not necessary, thus redundant. She just practically rehashes those when she reports in the meetings.
[quote]By and large I don’t understand your dislike.
Yes it was’nt a second ‘Into the Abyss’, but we (at least I) would’nt want a carbon copy of Into the Abyss.[/quote]And, I don’t understand your like.
Yes it was’nt a second ‘Into the Abyss’, but we (at least I) want a proper continuation of the first book, not a hudred pages bridge or setup.
[quote]While I liked the new Star Wars film, while watching. It left an not quite bad or good aftertaste.
Hopefully the next one isn’t an carbon copy of ‘The Empire Strikes back’.[/quote]At least a proper movie and a proper sequel. It is not a bridge or setup for the next movie.
[quote]Going back to the Topic, without Hilda the book would have been poorer. We got an good introduction to the FoL faction.
Shure there where others from the FoL there, but without Hilda we would have gooten an very negative impression. Much more balanced this way.[/quote]Yes, Hilda makes it less poor, but it still poor nonetheless. As for the impression, it only reflects on Hilda, not on the FoL as a whole.
See it this way, the Nazi would have some good members in its ranks, good people with good heart, in fact, there are; but would those members ‘balance’ the view on Nazis? Not at all. The action and trait of an individual reflect only on the individual, not the group.
[quote]I also get the Impression, that if TAG say’s something is needed as an build up for the next book, you are dismissing it as an irrelevant argument, without merrit?[/quote]
I have three things to say for this:
1) I’m not dismissing it. The biggest problem I have with all these setups is that there is no clear indication for what they are setting up for. Example, there is this scene where Hilda fights the beggars. It might fun and interesting, but what is its connection to everything else? Are the Beggars going to the Abyss and fight demons? Will the Beggars become Tom alies? Maybe the Beggars would become saints too. Uhh! I don’t know!
Another is this scene (which is present only in beta) where we practically have pages worth of nothing but Jenn and Gastrope having a rollercoaster ride. I don’t understand how this rollercoaster is a setup for anything. Any ideas? And there are similar scenes like these.
2) The argument that these stuff are boring is valid. In fact a large part of the book is boring. Say what you want about this, but a boring book is still a boring book no matter how “needed” the setups are.
3) Three, and the most important point: Heavenly Host is just setting things up for the next story instead of telling a story. In fact, you could say, it has no story at all. Lots of things are happening but they are so disconnected that they might as well be in different books. And the worst thing? It takes hundreds of pages for all of this setup crap. The setup is far bigger than the first book. What the hell.
Uhhhhh?
I don’t get what that is about… Still its great to read some obscure copy/pasted quote! I love quotes.
Yes, I do say that about Jenn and Gastrope and yes I want you to remove it or summarize it. Though it is not only me who has that view.
There was that Beta 1, general impressions, where I say a lot of stuff about the story.
And what are you saying? I do like Hilda. Never have much complaint about her.
The tree here though is that they are doing a lot of nothing and it’s terribly boring. I suggest that you either cut their scenes or make it more brief or make the treck more exciting. I even suggest that Jenn and Gastrope exchange stories with the residents of the Grove and such. Instead of doing something about the fact that they are doing much nothing and its terribly boring (the trees), you keep saying that Jenn and Gastrope’s treck is an important setup and important to future events (the forest). In the end the trees are still there, the treck is still boring with Jenn and Gastrope still doing much of nothing.
Though I must say, you do make the Nimbus part of the treck very exciting, that I approve. The ice dragons are a really nice touch.
As for the POV, first, I did not say in the review that they are confusing. What I said was they disrupt the flow of the story. Often times they feel disconnected that I had been skipping them when I read. The rehashing mostly is not said explicitly. Some beta say that the beggining half of the book have nothing happening or not exciting, I said that things keep repeating. There is one beta though that say that the early part of the book has only characters talking about the events of the first book.
As for Tom and company. It was just a collective desire to have more of Tom. It is not only me who want this. It was what we, the readers, desire. What you do with that knowledge is up to you. Also, you keep asking us for what we want, and we give you what we want. We want more of Tom.
As for sex, it is much more of a personal preference. It is also present in Book 1 but I just ignore it because Book 1 is just so great. Book 2 however is a different story, and it does not help when the sex has multiplied. And I say, what the heck, lets put it up. Really though, it is more of an irritant than anything.
Though there is one that I loath with the sex stuff, that is Trevin. Loath her. Hate her. I so really want to see her die. And her disgusting sexual advances is one big reason why.
Though many of us (hey it is not only me) who wants many parts out. The “tree” here though is that we don’t like those parts; that is why we want them off. As a writer you could… well… make them interesting? Make them more likeable? There should be many ways you could do without removing them. In the end you did nothing. So in the end, we still don’t like them.
Hey I did, say the things I want, though most of it is about stuff I want you to remove, there are some things that I want you to add. One of that is some Tom and Rupert moments. Another is to see Vaselle doing more than just shopping.
And I do put forth things that are good. The fight with ice dragons? I give you praise. D’Orcs? They are totally awesome! Tom acquiring the Rod? Interesting. I even like Vaselle when he really is just taking word space.
And wait!!! I don’t hate Hilda. In fact, aside from Tom, she is one of my favorite character. You want to know who I really hate? Trevin. Gosh, I said it quite clearly in beta. Really hate her.
And I didn’t hate the Grove, though, I don’t care much about the Grove either.
Yes, the forest. They somehow contributed to the story. The tree though is that I can’t see how it contributed to the story. And yes, I initially want it removed. Hey! Knee jerk reaction. But then, I just keep putting it forward to you since I can’t still see the connection. I want them to connect to the story.
One of that, when in beta, was the mercenaries. What they do are just talking a bunch of unrelated stuff and showing off their magic. It is contributing nothing to the story. Of course they might be important later (in the third book!) but as it is now they didn’t.
So, the tree was, this scene and many more similar ones, don’t contribute (yet) to the story. Instead of making them connect more solidly to the story, you just leave them as is. It turns out, other readers can’t see what they are about either and just see them as junk.
Yes, it is your story to tell, and in the end you will make the final decision. But understand, it was beta reading. There is bound to be negative stuff. We betas are bound to say what we don’t like about the work. We would say somethings you don’t like to hear. I had tried to be helpful by pointing out the problems. I did make suggestions. It is just, you can’t see what I see. There are lots of problematic trees. Why can’t you see them?
Thanks for admiring my insights and mind, hope it has been more useful to you though. Thanks for letting me beta read. It was a very great experience but was so stressful though.
@Dark Flamberge
I take that to mind. More objective. Yes.
Though in terms of me being loud, selfish and what not, is that about the beta reading? Have you read my beta reading comments? Do you even read what other beta readers has said? Am I really “banging a stick against a tree like so much pointless background noise” there? Do you really think it was only I who had those thoughts about the book. Did you even read the reviews in Amazon?
Really I’m starting to think that you have no clue what so ever about what The Author Guy and I was talking about.
Also, here, I am not critiquing since the beta reading is already over. This is just normal posts and comments.
I do have a review though at goodreads, but please don’t think it is a critique.
As for pauses, there is quite a difference between necessary stops and unnecessary bloat. It would have been OK, if this pauses, as you call them, adds something to the story, instead of like repeating things or info dumps or just so pointless. A scene like Tom and company talking about what to do with Talarius is different from a scene where there is this character talking about something that other characters have talked about already. A scene where the council of wizards are discusing what to do after the event is different from the scene where certain characters are just plainly travelling from point A to point B. Both are ‘pauses’ and contains no action, but one contributed something to the story while the other does not.
Also, if you are talking about the review, it is, somewhat, what you call ‘personal gripes.’ It was a personal reaction to the experience. It is certainly not a critique though. It isn’t meant to be one.
@Puck
“For example, Orcs and D’orcs were proven to be quite similar to other races.”
Then
“The other races being compared aren’t dragons, centaurs, and dwarfs. Its the various humans of Astlan.”
Hmm… I think humans is only one race.
I don’t expect things to wrap up in this book, I am only countering your point. You claim that: “…the little points connected” when I see a lot of points just floating around. You even manage to support me instead.
So because it is silly, I only have to give positive reviews? Being critical is being too serious? I can’t have negative sentiment for works that are meant to be funny? Being a commedy excuses poor execution? It is OK for works to be subpar if it is ?
@The Author Guy
Wait!
“Just because “you” can’t see or understand something immediately doesn’t mean it’s stupid or useless or has no point.”
I never said that! Stupid? Useless? Has no Point? None of these are my sentiment. I don’t even care if i don’t understant things immediately. None of that is even in my review. If you allow me, I would even copy it here.
The essence of my review is: This book is damn too long for the story it is telling and these new characters are uninteresting.
And I know that these books are really telling just one story. Very much like the Lord of the Rings. And, again, that is not even my complaint. Why do you keep pushing that to me. I don’t even care about that. I can’t really argue about things that I haven’t even thought about.
@Dirk Flamberge
Yeah. I guess I’m being too aggressive.
Though, I’m kinda annoyed when people keep using straw mans and ad hominem. After a few of that I’m read to explode!
The Author Guy also says that “you are not able to see the forest due to all the stupid trees in the way” – in turn he can’t see the individual trees because he is only concerned with the forest. He keeps missing details even if it is pointed out to him.
On the other topic, glad you like the book. I tried to like it, but I just can’t. It not because it is open ended, but becuase it skimps on things I look for in books. I would gladly read a badly or not edited text (would result to 1 star in many people) as long as the things I’m looking for is there.
But, the complaints I give have been present since the start and many Betas pointed them out. All of my complaints has been there since the beggining. I and other betas has given you many specific points and pointed them out. All the complaints is not new.
The rehashing of the plot? Almost everyone pointed that out from the start.
Too many POV? Again, have been pointed out from the start. You are just reluctant to remove them.
Characters not really makes the plot move forward? Yep, been talked about since day one. And you say the same thing as you said here: we don’t see the forest.
Want more story about Tom? A favorite request. One beta even request to have Tom fight some monster.
In fact all complaints in the critical reviews has been the complaint of many beta from the beggining.
On the other hand, did I really write in my review things I never pointed out in Beta? What is it? I thought all of my complaints have been given to you at beta.
I’m one who give a negative review with 2 stars at Goodreads.
@JMX
Well, it would have been OK to have multiple POV if the POV characters are noteworthy and are relevant storywise or at least give something exetremely entertaining (like Scrat from Ice Age), but many of these POV characters aren’t. Specificaly many of the D’orcs like Ragala-nargoloth. They are a difinition of filler, very unneccesary ones.
Many POV characters are also given too much time they don’t deserve. Vaselle particularly is given lot of scenes and word space when he barely contribute anything. The D’Orcs party preparation is a bit obnoxious too.
It is not that it creates confusion or it is hard to follow, we just simply don’t care about them. And if we don’t care about them, we don’t want to read about them.
Of course, there is also the fact that I can’t see how to push the story forward. The Author Guy keeps saying that they do, but I just can’t see it. I read multiple times and I still can’t see it.
As for the reaction scenes, they are OK, though at times you linger too long on them and of course there are some characters whose reactions we don’t really care like this Randolf. These might be least of my complaints.
Though if I pin one thing that vastly affects my view, its the lack of cohesion. All the characters, all the events, all the details just come together in a erratic and disharmonious manner. There something going on with the council of wizards here, then there is this about the partheon of Tiernon, then something is going on with Oorstemoth too, and there is of course Tom, the mystery book which got with all of these, Rupert suddenly jostle in, and many others.
There is also lot of such things in the first book but they all go together for a solid experience. They layer together beautifuly like layers of lasagna. Book 2 however is so disjointed. Even though I can enjoy many of them individually, they don’t combine into one coherent experience.
I’m sure the ‘we’ I mean includes other critical reviewers. I read their review they share the same sentiments. JMX specificaly says:
“2 Thumbs up I really enjoyed the book. Although I think some of your reviewers might be slightly retarded. One person gave 1 star because he only wanted to read about Tom. He must be easily confused and can’t follow multiple characters.”
Though I’m quite a bit insulted when JMX says that this reviewer is retarded. I’m sure this reviewer after reading this would say that this reviewers who give four or five stars are the ones who is retarted.
Though for your claim that the Orcs and D’Orcs are like the other races, that is not really conclusive from the book. I might say, you are making a big assumption without any support. Especially when the other races doesn’t really have much time under the spot light. For example the Djinns, the dragons, the centaurs, the dwarfs, etc.
And what do you mean “how the little points connected?” Can you be more specific? Because really what I see is the opposite. Like, what is with this Vaselle guy. Did the author just really need someone to do the shopping? And what is with this Randolf and that Djinn. How did Randolf get that Djinn’s favor? And what is with the Partheon of Teirnon. After all this time investigating, they still don’t make an effort to get his name and instead depend on assumptions and speculation? Really, I see more points getting disconnected than them connecting.
So, I also respectfully disagree. They do really keep me from enjoying the book.
@Corey:
I think, the failures of most of those are caused by bad decision. There are also tv shows, movies, books etc. that had succeed because they give in to the viewers.
It happen with the Digimon animated series. Digimon Frontier causes its popularity to drop. The Power Rangers vibe is not well liked and its plot and abundance of filler isn’t helping. The series recover when they return to human-digimon partnership format in future seasons.
Following your artistic vission isn’t always the way. The widely panned The Last Airbender is an example. Instead of giving the fans what they want and expected, Shyamalan instead opt to follow his ‘style’ to the result of extremely poor review. There will be no sequel of it for sure.
@The Author Guy
I hope you achieve that balance you are looking for.
The recent silence in the forum doesn’t give much of a clue though.
