ETA: Next book
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I’m sure the ‘we’ I mean includes other critical reviewers. I read their review they share the same sentiments. JMX specificaly says:
“2 Thumbs up I really enjoyed the book. Although I think some of your reviewers might be slightly retarded. One person gave 1 star because he only wanted to read about Tom. He must be easily confused and can’t follow multiple characters.”
Though I’m quite a bit insulted when JMX says that this reviewer is retarded. I’m sure this reviewer after reading this would say that this reviewers who give four or five stars are the ones who is retarted.
Though for your claim that the Orcs and D’Orcs are like the other races, that is not really conclusive from the book. I might say, you are making a big assumption without any support. Especially when the other races doesn’t really have much time under the spot light. For example the Djinns, the dragons, the centaurs, the dwarfs, etc.
And what do you mean “how the little points connected?” Can you be more specific? Because really what I see is the opposite. Like, what is with this Vaselle guy. Did the author just really need someone to do the shopping? And what is with this Randolf and that Djinn. How did Randolf get that Djinn’s favor? And what is with the Partheon of Teirnon. After all this time investigating, they still don’t make an effort to get his name and instead depend on assumptions and speculation? Really, I see more points getting disconnected than them connecting.
So, I also respectfully disagree. They do really keep me from enjoying the book.
I suppose I should have been more specific. The other races being compared aren’t dragons, centaurs, and dwarfs. Its the various humans of Astlan.
And little points. Did Vaselle come out of left field? Yes, but their was an effort to push him into the story. He had a use, he provided a potential trail, he offered some forshadowing. Purpose. As for everything else, I think you wanted things to be wrapped up in the one book? In book one things layered nicely. Book two was more chaotic yes, but I feel like its supposed to be. In book three I certainly expect more answers. The Djinn threw me out of left field to, but I’ve been keeping up with the forums so I found some manner of point. I suppose I can only say don’t take the books to seriously. From the get go, they’ve had a sillier element to it. Maybe after book three (Should you choose to read it) your opinion might change, or perhaps mine will!
One never knows!
@Puck
“For example, Orcs and D’orcs were proven to be quite similar to other races.”
Then
“The other races being compared aren’t dragons, centaurs, and dwarfs. Its the various humans of Astlan.”
Hmm… I think humans is only one race.
I don’t expect things to wrap up in this book, I am only countering your point. You claim that: “…the little points connected” when I see a lot of points just floating around. You even manage to support me instead.
So because it is silly, I only have to give positive reviews? Being critical is being too serious? I can’t have negative sentiment for works that are meant to be funny? Being a commedy excuses poor execution? It is OK for works to be subpar if it is ?
@The Author Guy
Wait!
“Just because “you” can’t see or understand something immediately doesn’t mean it’s stupid or useless or has no point.”
I never said that! Stupid? Useless? Has no Point? None of these are my sentiment. I don’t even care if i don’t understant things immediately. None of that is even in my review. If you allow me, I would even copy it here.
The essence of my review is: This book is damn too long for the story it is telling and these new characters are uninteresting.
And I know that these books are really telling just one story. Very much like the Lord of the Rings. And, again, that is not even my complaint. Why do you keep pushing that to me. I don’t even care about that. I can’t really argue about things that I haven’t even thought about.
Well i quite liked the book, and although there is a lot of POV switching and unanswered questions running around my mind at the moment regarding some characters, I don’t find fault for it that it isn’t all resolved in this one book considering it isn’t a individual enclosed addition but more like a chain link of continuous literature. To be honest Rosver it sounds like you’re taking the counter-comments [b]Very[/b] personally for some reason, but it’s not my job or desire to question someone [i]ungeschliffen[/i] as you are, so I’ll leave it be. 5 stars TAG good read can’t wait for book III =d>
@Dirk Flamberge
Yeah. I guess I’m being too aggressive.
Though, I’m kinda annoyed when people keep using straw mans and ad hominem. After a few of that I’m read to explode!
The Author Guy also says that “you are not able to see the forest due to all the stupid trees in the way” – in turn he can’t see the individual trees because he is only concerned with the forest. He keeps missing details even if it is pointed out to him.
On the other topic, glad you like the book. I tried to like it, but I just can’t. It not because it is open ended, but becuase it skimps on things I look for in books. I would gladly read a badly or not edited text (would result to 1 star in many people) as long as the things I’m looking for is there.
But, the complaints I give have been present since the start and many Betas pointed them out. All of my complaints has been there since the beggining. I and other betas has given you many specific points and pointed them out. All the complaints is not new.
The rehashing of the plot? Almost everyone pointed that out from the start.
Too many POV? Again, have been pointed out from the start. You are just reluctant to remove them.
Characters not really makes the plot move forward? Yep, been talked about since day one. And you say the same thing as you said here: we don’t see the forest.
Want more story about Tom? A favorite request. One beta even request to have Tom fight some monster.
In fact all complaints in the critical reviews has been the complaint of many beta from the beggining.
On the other hand, did I really write in my review things I never pointed out in Beta? What is it? I thought all of my complaints have been given to you at beta.
Yes, I do say that about Jenn and Gastrope and yes I want you to remove it or summarize it. Though it is not only me who has that view.
There was that Beta 1, general impressions, where I say a lot of stuff about the story.
And what are you saying? I do like Hilda. Never have much complaint about her.
The tree here though is that they are doing a lot of nothing and it’s terribly boring. I suggest that you either cut their scenes or make it more brief or make the treck more exciting. I even suggest that Jenn and Gastrope exchange stories with the residents of the Grove and such. Instead of doing something about the fact that they are doing much nothing and its terribly boring (the trees), you keep saying that Jenn and Gastrope’s treck is an important setup and important to future events (the forest). In the end the trees are still there, the treck is still boring with Jenn and Gastrope still doing much of nothing.
Though I must say, you do make the Nimbus part of the treck very exciting, that I approve. The ice dragons are a really nice touch.
As for the POV, first, I did not say in the review that they are confusing. What I said was they disrupt the flow of the story. Often times they feel disconnected that I had been skipping them when I read. The rehashing mostly is not said explicitly. Some beta say that the beggining half of the book have nothing happening or not exciting, I said that things keep repeating. There is one beta though that say that the early part of the book has only characters talking about the events of the first book.
As for Tom and company. It was just a collective desire to have more of Tom. It is not only me who want this. It was what we, the readers, desire. What you do with that knowledge is up to you. Also, you keep asking us for what we want, and we give you what we want. We want more of Tom.
As for sex, it is much more of a personal preference. It is also present in Book 1 but I just ignore it because Book 1 is just so great. Book 2 however is a different story, and it does not help when the sex has multiplied. And I say, what the heck, lets put it up. Really though, it is more of an irritant than anything.
Though there is one that I loath with the sex stuff, that is Trevin. Loath her. Hate her. I so really want to see her die. And her disgusting sexual advances is one big reason why.
Though many of us (hey it is not only me) who wants many parts out. The “tree” here though is that we don’t like those parts; that is why we want them off. As a writer you could… well… make them interesting? Make them more likeable? There should be many ways you could do without removing them. In the end you did nothing. So in the end, we still don’t like them.
Hey I did, say the things I want, though most of it is about stuff I want you to remove, there are some things that I want you to add. One of that is some Tom and Rupert moments. Another is to see Vaselle doing more than just shopping.
And I do put forth things that are good. The fight with ice dragons? I give you praise. D’Orcs? They are totally awesome! Tom acquiring the Rod? Interesting. I even like Vaselle when he really is just taking word space.
And wait!!! I don’t hate Hilda. In fact, aside from Tom, she is one of my favorite character. You want to know who I really hate? Trevin. Gosh, I said it quite clearly in beta. Really hate her.
And I didn’t hate the Grove, though, I don’t care much about the Grove either.
Yes, the forest. They somehow contributed to the story. The tree though is that I can’t see how it contributed to the story. And yes, I initially want it removed. Hey! Knee jerk reaction. But then, I just keep putting it forward to you since I can’t still see the connection. I want them to connect to the story.
One of that, when in beta, was the mercenaries. What they do are just talking a bunch of unrelated stuff and showing off their magic. It is contributing nothing to the story. Of course they might be important later (in the third book!) but as it is now they didn’t.
So, the tree was, this scene and many more similar ones, don’t contribute (yet) to the story. Instead of making them connect more solidly to the story, you just leave them as is. It turns out, other readers can’t see what they are about either and just see them as junk.
Yes, it is your story to tell, and in the end you will make the final decision. But understand, it was beta reading. There is bound to be negative stuff. We betas are bound to say what we don’t like about the work. We would say somethings you don’t like to hear. I had tried to be helpful by pointing out the problems. I did make suggestions. It is just, you can’t see what I see. There are lots of problematic trees. Why can’t you see them?
Thanks for admiring my insights and mind, hope it has been more useful to you though. Thanks for letting me beta read. It was a very great experience but was so stressful though.
You really should show your criticisms in a more objective manner because it just reads like: My selfish overemphasized views are so important that I’m going to say it was more than me who hold them as their thoughts on the book. Sounds more like people can’t handle pauses between the action like jittery children, also it hardly seems to be ‘helpful’ the way that you throw things out there like banging a stick against a tree like so much pointless background noise. I for one think there’s a difference between personal gripes and actual critique.
@Dark Flamberge
I take that to mind. More objective. Yes.
Though in terms of me being loud, selfish and what not, is that about the beta reading? Have you read my beta reading comments? Do you even read what other beta readers has said? Am I really “banging a stick against a tree like so much pointless background noise” there? Do you really think it was only I who had those thoughts about the book. Did you even read the reviews in Amazon?
Really I’m starting to think that you have no clue what so ever about what The Author Guy and I was talking about.
Also, here, I am not critiquing since the beta reading is already over. This is just normal posts and comments.
I do have a review though at goodreads, but please don’t think it is a critique.
As for pauses, there is quite a difference between necessary stops and unnecessary bloat. It would have been OK, if this pauses, as you call them, adds something to the story, instead of like repeating things or info dumps or just so pointless. A scene like Tom and company talking about what to do with Talarius is different from a scene where there is this character talking about something that other characters have talked about already. A scene where the council of wizards are discusing what to do after the event is different from the scene where certain characters are just plainly travelling from point A to point B. Both are ‘pauses’ and contains no action, but one contributed something to the story while the other does not.
Also, if you are talking about the review, it is, somewhat, what you call ‘personal gripes.’ It was a personal reaction to the experience. It is certainly not a critique though. It isn’t meant to be one.
Which is funny because I could’ve sworn i applied for that, but meh, not really complaining at this point since the books out and I like it. :-s
I thought you had to, I sent out an email at the begining to all users, but might have got spammed.
Once it was live there was a link to click on that gave absolutely no indication of anything and a few hours later you could see the beta forums. Magic is mysterious, I guess. It went on for some time…
[quote=Dirk Flamberge;2856]Which is funny because I could’ve sworn i applied for that, but meh, not really complaining at this point since the books out and I like it. :-s [/quote]
Almost missed the Beta, too
Hmm,
Well I will try something different next time, give a lot more heads up as to starting date.
I used the Forum’s mass emailer thing. It’s really poorly written, when you send the email the entire server bogs down, the site becomes inaccessible for like 15 minutes. There were less than 200 people. That should have been no strain and trivial. I’ve designed a lot of websites that can email and notify users, emails are very very low overhead things. It should not have bogged down the system and shouldn’t have taken much more than a minute or two.
My bet is that they all looked like auto-generated emails (which they sort of were) and so got spammed. I will do something different for the emails next time.
Also, I gotta work on the stupid link button that you click and then wait random numbers of hours to let you in a a Beta Demon. That caused lots of confusion.
T-A-G
Not sure what someone thought was wrong with Hilda.
I know a lot of people were impatient with her because there was so much her and so little Tom in the first part and sometimes that lack of Tom got conflated with dislike of Hilda.
But after ironing things out, I’m not seeing anyone really dislike her. They just wanted more Tom at the same time.
I think your point is very valid. Actually DoA is intended as a reaction to that sort of story line you describe. I got tired of reading the same coming of age/conflict story (or clumsy hero saves the day) over and over so many times I decided to try to turn it on its head.
I really love Hilda, she provides a lot of balance; and she is powerful, but reasonable and “human”
I think the biggest thing that (secretly) annoyed people was that it wasn’t what they were expecting. And that ticked people off. But again, that’s part of the point. If one has read this all before, then what’s the point of writing it again?
That was my big thought when I was starting this, most fantasy books became like sitcoms, you only need to look at the title, read the blurb and a few chapters and you know where it’s going. I want to put an end to that, but still make it fun.
And my hope is that some of the more boring parts will start to pay off in later volumes. There are some long setup times…but I don’t like things just pulled out of thin air to solve a problem ‘deus ex machina’ style so I have a lot of setup to explain what happens later, some of that, I admit can be less exciting.
[quote=Flakes;2908]What was the problem with Hilda. She was the best part of book 2. She was book 2’s Tom. The reason I kept reading. I’m happy with the way things turned out. All too often in self published books you get some uber main character who is over powered, who just breezes through the plot with deus ex machina saves and shallow secondary characters. Terry Mancour and E. william brown are two fine examples of this. They are the Fantasy for the adolescent male who never grew up crowd. Making it not entirely about Tom lessens this. So while some of the other sections are boring as fuck, they are still worthwhile.[/quote]
If I wanted to watch re-runs of Mr. Roger’s Neighborhood so I can learn valuable life lessons, I would do so. Terry Mancour and E. William Brown are both fine writers and know their niche audiences well. The audience wants awesome magic battles in the vein of Buck Rogers, they don’t want the plucky underdog or the hero’s journey that normally goes with that. No one does. George R.R. Martin writes some wonderful fiction in the area you are looking for, so does Tad Williams. Highly detailed interwoven plots and sub-plots take decades to write correctly, as in the book came out today, sequel comes out 5 to 10 years later. I read the the first two books of the song of ice and fire back to back… 12 to 15 years ago. I don’t remember any of the characters, their motivations, convictions, none of it. None. It’s like asking me the name of the boy from Indian in the cupboard that I read when I was 8. I don’t know and I’m not sure why I should care. I’m sure I’ll give a book series with an extremely complex plot a look once it’s complete.
I found Hilda to be a fine character, and her journey to be nice. But completely redundant. She was filler. It was like Goku screaming for half an episode to build a sense of awe and suspense, but mainly because they needed to stretch two comics worth of material into 6 episodes. I, personally, liked it. I can plainly see why many would not.
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