Time Frame on next book

[JMX]

Soon….
So what does one have to do to become a demon..
Sick on law enforcement/military ect.. People suck and can be horrible.

On a positive note everyday is different!

[Tizzy]

I’d agree.

Some things are better left to the imagination. Not all puzzles must be solved immediately, and some never.

However, some things are mistakes or could be better explained/described, hence beta reading to catch inconsistencies.

Also keep in mind, characters with a POV will think of describe things in their words, even if they aren’t correct. So a green glass bottle that an obviously drunk person is wielding is interpreted as a wine bottle, by Tom, when instead it could be a ’60’s era bottle of 7 up…which as we all know works fine in the Abyss.

I myself like 7up because it comes in green bottles that complement my complexion.

Perrier is the same and in fact it looks more like a wine bottle than 7up.

Of course, in Astlan (not the Abyss) there really isn’t a single shape/color for a wine bottle. Wine casks, yes. But bottles are refillable objects of various shapes and sizes.

Ranking systems are a problem for another reason: Translations. The exact ranks may be different but depending on whose talking the closest word in a foreign language might translate literally to something of a different rank etc.

For example, I am torturing Talarius by calling him a Paladin. Because by Earth standards, most of you would think of him as being a Paladin. However, as he likes to point out, he is not a Paladin, but rather a Knight Rampant. It’s a function of rank, and by calling him a Paladin, I am demoting him verbally.

[Rosver]

Are we talking about fluid reality again! OMG!

@Tizzy:

Buildings move around? It certainly is lucky… or I say coincedental… that “The Ripe Young Maiden’s Surprise” stay its ground when Tom is looking for it. Though if what you say is true, navigating that city is a nightmare! Harry Potter got lost on those switching stairs, changing city scape? Nightmare! I also wonder why the stores need to change location and image. Location and Branding is a very powerful factor for a business. You can’t really just change your location and branding willy-nilly or you loose your business. That might indicate that demons has no sense of business.

Though I am wondering why there are many collapsed buildings if they took such toil to present vanity.

The Economy is also something I discussed before but people seems uninterested in it. No one seems interested with it now too.

I’m also just pointing out these weird things but, really, I don’t mind them much. T-A-G might have something in mind for doing so and I for one is looking forward to it.

As for reality, keep observing or they might disappear when you are not looking.

[Tizzy]

Whew, my brain went out just reading all that. Way beyond my pay grade to say much intelligent.

But I can make some observations:

have you looked at the pictures of me? if Tom’s flying is questionable under your traditional physics, mine is down right impossible.
I know more, but am not saying. Telling people what can and can’t be done in advance, often limits what they can and can not do.

As T-A-G and I have pointed out, a lot of the courts are facades and shared illusion. And what I mean by this is rather complex to detail here and now.
But both reality and illusion do change frequently. However, even so, it’s more like rotation. There are only so many archetypes for buildings and styles.
Each building or group of building has so many permutations. Demons cycle them in and out like a museum does art exhibits.

And things do just move around, your favorite bar might move to the other side of town over night and change it’s appearance. If you’ve been around long enough, you’ll have seen all the variations of each building, new variations aren’t popping up that often.

What really makes it change “a lot” is that all of the buildings tend to change or move randomly, with only somewhat irregular coordination. It’s the multitude of possible combinations that really makes the city chaotic seeming. No single building or group of buildings have that many appearances, but when a building changes and the one next to it on the right also changes, and the one on the left swaps out with something else altogether, the net result can be a lot of change.

[i][b][size=7][color=red]—————below gets into dangerous stuff that you haven’t yet discussed, but is needed to answer some of the questions you’ve raised so it’s getting into spoiler territory———————————————————————–[/color][/size][/b][/i]

Now, the one big thing you guys are missing here; and seriously I can’t believe you are missing this, because having read/dictated book II, it is something that’s bugging Tom.

Economics, trade, money.

Yes there is lots of tribalism, bullying etc. But really most of the smaller demons get that from wizards.

The demon princes have learned that fear and terror of their might only goes so far; and that a combination of carrots and sticks help.

So the fear/terror/torture is the stick, the carrots are rewards for service, good behavior. These rewards are “trinkets” from other worlds, magic items, spells, favors for service (the maybe someday coming Antefalken short stories–Tales of the Demon Bard–or something like that, will focus on this in a lot of detail).

So, smaller demons have all these things, they accumulate them over centuries of toil to the more powerful demons who can provide these things.

The button below really is a sort of spoiler; so don’t read it if you don’t want a mystery of book 1 (somewhat) 2 (definitely) answered now.

[SPOILER]One of the biggest things the council can’t figure out in book 2 is how the hell Exador is able to control so many demons? He doesn’t. He pays them! They work for him, and they expect to get compensated for their services. Yes, he’s a shitty horrible tyrant of a boss…but he is simply a very abusive employer—

And come on silly Fantasy Authors—Does anyone really expect an “Army of Darkness” to work for free? Sure, maybe the undead, but the goblins, trolls, orcs? They need to get paid, and something more than just looting and pillaging—

For how to do this right–>Glenn Cook knows how an Army of Evil should work.
[/SPOILER]

Anyway, you notice that there is also money in the Abyss. There is robust trade. Money is issued under the imprint of the Co-Factors (one side of the coins are Sammael, the other Lillith) The banking system is very crude, but the coins are basic barter units to value the ‘trinkets’ and ‘artifacts’ provided by the greater demons to their servants.

So–lampshading—forget your tropes. key rules that can be extract from what T-A-G has said on this forum.

1) Observations are made from different points of view.
A) Different points of view will explain things differently.
B) Maelen will explain what he sees based on what he knows.
C) Jenn/Gastrope’ will explain based on their knowledge
D) Tom will explain based on his knowledge or lack thereof.
E) I will just tell you the unvarnished truth, how it is, what’s real and what’s not.
2) For what Tom sees and notes.
A) He’s 16, yes a very bright/mature 16 year old but kids are often just observing something and shrugging
B) He’s a total book nerd, he’s read a lot of Fantasy and Science Fiction, so if he sees something that’s consistent with Fantasy or D&D, he just says “OK”
C) At many points he’s under duress/stress/ and maybe in a bit of shock, so he may not be fulling processing things, and when he does it’s probably in a more narcistict way, revolving around himself, rather than an objective scientist sort of way.
3) T-A-G has been very explicit that there is [color=darkblue][i][b]some weird shit going on[/b][/i][/color] and that he knows this, it’s intentional, and no he may not explain it all, at least not until book 36.

[JMX]

I may have used google translator to translate the last two books of a 3 part series from Russian to English because only the first book was published in the US.

I hate waiting.. Lol

[Rosver]

@lume:

[quote]I probably wasn’t clear on this. I meant, just because it was stolen doesn’t mean it wasn’t modified. Somehow.[/quote]

No they don’t. Antefalken gives a rather comprehensive explanation of how they do it. They just open a gate and took objects in. No more, no less.

[quote]They may not be able to so formal spells like a wizard or like a higher-ranked demon but they still managed to do things that defy our physics. It must be something, so why not magic? It is also suggested that the energy / animus that demons are is part of magic and they can manipulate it somewhat so perhaps demons are partly magic & have an instinctive rather than conscious control over it.[/quote]

In this world magic is manipulation of mana. Almost all of the demons can’t manipulate mana. Those who do is very few and are very powerful.

[quote]Oh, I know it was a hand wave, but we also know that fireballs ignite, explode, and contract in mid-air after coming out of nothing. Why can’t the “laws of physics” may be made up in this realm? Although they wouldn’t hold together if subjected to a logical analysis but they may also be held together by the demons’ will even if it isn’t a conscious effort.[/quote]

There is a flaw in this. There are many wills. If the physics is really made up then why do the physics there very homogeneous? Since physics depends on the will why don’t physics become different at the different part of the Abyss? Why don’t one will to turn off gravity. Will it so that it won’t stench. Or will that those buildings don’t collapse (the Court is litered with it)? Why? The only reason why is because they can’t will it at all.

[quote]Would this include military grade equipment with it higher tolerances?[/quote]

So there is militaty grade [b]silk[/b] now? Or military grade [b]wood[/b]? Don’t tell me there is military grade wine? Your kidding right?

[quote]Can the matter of an item be changed as it is brought though even if the visual is unchanged?[/quote]

So the matter in the wine and other beverages have changed? Water into what? Alcohol into what? Antioxidants into what? Would the wine still be wine if that happens?

[quote]Eh, call it psychic ability or animus ability. Both can be described as mental thought & concentration to affect a change to the world. Call it what you will. However, I do agree that a loss of attention may cause it to fail, but what if it is a case of belief = reality? It isn’t easy to believe something you know to be untrue, but because the demon’s accept that they can pull things over and have it safely endure, it does. However, they also know that living things can’t tolerate the heat for long, so they don’t. Just throwing it out there.[/quote]

That is not the case here, you know that right? Your “what if” isn’t how it works in the book so is invalid argument.

[quote]If there is a formal definition then nope! I was using the term “fluid reality” to describe a situation where what we perceive to be true can be changed. I was deliberately implying god-like powers, super-psychics, and non-material realities. What is a plane? How does it work? How does it differ? These are not really discussed except for the Astral Plane. Maybe the Abyss (Abyss Plane?) is a plane with its own rules and they are subject to change unlike Astlan which may be a fixed plane whose rules cannot be changed.[/quote]

Huh? Are you arguing behind the veil of ambiguity? It isn’t wrong because it has no defined meaning? It has no formal definition so it is correct? What kind of argument is that?

If it was Godlike powers, then God! why don’t they will a chair appear instead of stealing it. Why don’t they wil fresher air. Why don’t they will the streets to be clean. Why don’t they will anything? Answer? Because they can’t.

[quote]Yep! As long as the world is internally consistent I’ll accept it. It doesn’t have to be explained. I know that lampshading doesn’t explain it, but if we have Tom notice the fact, notice that it doesn’t matter, and then move on I’ll be fine and consider the issue resolved because it works within the framework of the story. Of course, he could also look deeper and learn to abuse his knowledge, but there are demons from higher-tech worlds which could have done the same, but it seems didn’t so… who knows?[/quote]

You are contradicting yourself. You say you’ll accept it as long as the world is internally consisitent; but you agree in lampshading. Lampshading is a deliberate spotlighting of inconsistencies then just moving on without explaining it. Often used humorously. Here is a rather more extensive definition of it:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LampshadeHanging

If the author lampshade something then it is accepted that the world is inconsistent and implausible. Since you only accept if the world is consistent, then a work that lampshades should not be acceptable to you.

@Madfox:

The Court changes then confirmed that? Don’t you know that cities constantantly changes? Don’t think that New York City looks the same now as it was hundred years ago? Do City of London in 19th century the same City of London now? Or do you think that every city would remain the same and idenitical through the ages for eternity?

Things constantly changes. It is not surprising that The Court changes… because it should. It is the way things work. I would have been more astounded if The Court of Chaos has remain the same since its founding than finding it changing.

@lume

I don’t really understand how the incredulity of what Madfox is saying escape your attention.

@Tizzy

If what you say was true, then the things they stole should have not worked. Electronics for example uses the physics (electicity, magnetism, light, capacitance, induction, etc.). The piano strings create their sound due to vibrations and the physics that go with it. These things are very much calibrated to the physics they work in. You know how things greatly change when small variations, like how the tone of the piano would change if the tension of the string is changed by a few Nestons. If physics don’t work the same way in the Abyss, then these devices should not work at all because the technology that drives them no longer works.

Just think. How would things change if instead of F=ma its F=1.5ma? Think of how it would have change engineering?

“The Abyss also has relatively easy access to various Planes of Men that Astlan does not. In particular, the Abyss doesn’t seem to care about the physics of various Planes of Men.”

Then why do humans in Astlan need to protect themselves from the heat? Somehow the law of physics apply to them but not to a glass of wine? If the temperature is uncomfortable for a person, then it is not good for the wine, as wine masters would say. If want example of violation of internal physics this should be it.

And I think you would come with a more complicated explanation for this. *sigh*

I mean… come on people. You can’t justify the unjustifiable. Why can’t you accept that the logic is faulty?

[Rosver]

@lume:

Thanks for bearing my rudeness and hot headedness. I’ve been inconsiderate.

Well, I’ve read what you writen. Quite long!

First though, the maleability of the Courts. There might be a more simpler explanation. They are demons. They are strong, powerful, and could just steal materials anywhere. They number of these demons could do a lot of renovaton in a moment. It might not be because the area is maleable because of concentration of magic. It is because these demons is powerful enough that they can rend a human body in moments, break walls and bend inches thick metals all with just their bare hands.

Af for Tom and the ship, I thought it was a fault! The wood should have chared when Tom become the living flame.

[quote]So maybe animus manipulation can make wood, plastic, alcohol, et cetera work in the Abyss by willpower or by the equivalent to willpower saying “Do not be affected”. [/quote]

However, Also connected to point #1, from Animus and Mana account in the book (after chapter 54 in my copy):

[quote]Animus is the “energy of life” it is roughly speaking the spirit or soul, the “living” part of all living creatures. All things that are alive have animus. Animus inundates every cell and the very molecular and genetic structure of living creatures. It is what separates organic compounds from living organisms. When a creature dies, the animus leaves the cells of its body and either disperses into the world around or in the case of high animus concentrations, may travel to other locations or planes.[/quote]

Animus is strongly associated with the living. Since wood, plastic, alcohol, et cetera aren’t living they can’t hold animus, unless object linked, and object links isn’t suppose to do what you say it do.

Point #2. In Animages and Animagic account (after chapter 64 in my copy):

[quote]Animages are individuals who use their minds to manipulate their own personal animus. Using their animus, they can manipulate mana, and hence the elements and the physical world around them. For all practical purposes, animages are individuals who simply need concentrate in the proper manner to achieve magic or spell-like effects. [/quote]

There are other part that indicates that manipulating animus requires constant mental effort and has no effect otherwise. Also in the same account:

[quote]Actually, this is a slight over simplification. In actual point of fact, an animage cannot simply will something to happen; rather he or she must manipulate his or her animus in such a way as to cause mana to behave in the desired manner.[/quote]

So they just can’t do the equivalent to willpower saying “Do not be affected” as you so stated. Also, higher up from your quote about Tom and the ship:

[quote]Maelen blinked suddenly realizing the problem. Edwyrd had so far contained his flame so that he did no damage to the deck or rail beneath and beside him. As he escalated his flame, that was no longer the case. Maelen shouted.[/quote]

There is quite a more banal explanation as to why. He might be containing the heat so that it won’t radiate and affect the wood.

Point #3 is moot as 1 an 2 isn’t viable.

Also as I stated before, there is very few demon who can manipulate mana and even rarer, it seems, one that manipulates animus like Tom.

———-
Lampshading

You said that the world has to be internally consistent. That is it must follow it own rules.

However you say:

[quote]I know that lampshading doesn’t explain it, but if we have Tom notice the fact, notice that it doesn’t matter, and then move on I’ll be fine and consider the issue resolved because it works within the framework of the story[/quote]

Lampshading doesn’t explain the inconsistency, the reason why, therefore the world is still inconsistent. Just because a character notice that it doesn’t matter doesn’t means its consistent. Also, the issue here do matters. It is quite prevalent in the book and has social significance.

Also you’re quote is quite incomplete and is taken out of context. The whole quote is:

[quote]Lampshade Hanging is the writers’ trick of dealing with any element of the story that threatens the audience’s Willing Suspension of Disbelief, whether a very implausible plot development, or a particularly blatant use of a trope, by calling attention to it and simply moving on. [/quote]

Also adding the second pharagraph:

[quote]The reason for this counter-intuitive strategy is two-fold. First, it assures the audience that the author is aware of the implausible plot development that just happened, and that they aren’t trying to slip something past the audience. Second, it assures the audience that the world of the story is like Real Life: what’s implausible for you or me is just as implausible for these characters, and just as likely to provoke an incredulous response. [/quote]

Also, your A and B interpretation doesn’t apply. Not A because the issue here is not about presentation. You can change how this things are presented, say not putting too much attention to it, or use purple prose; the inconsistency would still be there.

And not B because the issue is not about the character. It is about the objects found in the Abyss. Be the characters present or not, the issue remains.

———-
Fluid reality

Your difinition of fluid reality is a bit different from mine.

Fluid reality comes from a very weird Quantum Theory regarding subatomic particles and their properties. On example, you know that they act like particles at some instance and waves in another. The theory is that they have two realities, one is the particle, and the other one is the wave. It settles into one of the two realities if we observed it and the nature of the observation dictates the outcome. And the outcomes are mighty weird.

Think of this like this, you have a box that contains candy you brought from a store. There are many possiblities of what candy it contains, based on what the store sells. In quantum theory, the box contains all realities, all the kind of the candies. The contents of the box only settle to one of the reality or candy once you open it and observe what is inside.

That is very weird. It means that any part of the our world we are not observing doesn’t settle into a reality, or is fluid. It is all the realities but none of the realities at the same time. It only settle down to single reality once we observe it. In another sense, the reality we know exist because we observe it. Once we are not observing it, it fails to exist.

Then there is this mystical notion like yours. Since observation dictates the outcome of reality, we can somehow harness our will to change reality.

Did anyone else get it? I don’t. It just so weird. It make my head hurt.

@Tizzy

I think it is in the [BB/] button before the spell check. It is listed there.

[Tizzy]

What’s unhealthy about demonic cultural conditioning?

If you read it enough, you’ll start seeing how reasonable demons are, and how unreasonable humans are and pretty soon your thoughts will be on a higher plane of reasoning and you’ll be able to see truths not apparent to mortals.

[The Deposed King]

[quote=Rosver;1408]Hmmm. Being a beta reader seems interesting. Hope I’m picked!

Those Oostemoth are hillariously crazy. And they being serious in their craziness just multiply it hundred of times. Well, I now know that serious and insane could go together.

Those romance writers are just in to it for the O.[/quote]

I’ll sign so long as I to use my own pen! (invisible ink and some of your own fine print anyone!!!)

Make me a beta!

The Deposed King

[Iume]

Rosver, you are coming across to me as quite angry and responding without taking the time to think things through. I have a hypothesis with musings & evidence and a conclusion that I can present, but it is rather long so if you promise to take a moment to write down your response, shelve it, come back after a few hours and re-read & edit before responding, will you do so?

[Grant]

How far through book 2 are you and when will we know a approximate release date so we can volunteer our time for beta reading.
P.S I am happy to pay to be a beta reader =p~

[Rosver]

Hmmm. Being a beta reader seems interesting. Hope I’m picked!

Those Oostemoth are hillariously crazy. And they being serious in their craziness just multiply it hundred of times. Well, I now know that serious and insane could go together.

Those romance writers are just in to it for the O.

[Rosver]

@lume:

These technologies are not made by demons, they stole them. Demons open gates to another world (say Astlan), grab what they want, then bring it to the Abyss.

>Magic has issues since very few demons could do magic.
>Different law of Physics. So somehow the physics collaborate such that things the demon stole works fine in the Abyss? Why not say they explode instead? Or become dangerous to demons? Or turn to gas? Or infinite other such possibilities that makes what they took useless? Why such specific and rather helpful law? This is esseentially a hand wave.
>Different construction techniques. Won’t work, the problem here is materials. For example many plastic would melt at high temperatures. No matter how you construct that plastic chair, since its plastic, it would melt.
>Psychic ability. The demons don’t have that abilty. And if they do, they need to focus their atention to it. What if their master called them? Goodbye plastic chair?
>Fluid reality. Eh? Do you know what that means? You taken too much liberty with it. Its like X-men where genes enable mutants to control the weather or control magnetism.

[quote]It might not work on Earth, but clearly it works in the Abyss.[/quote]

Huh! A hand wave.

Well, the demons actually stole those things probably even those buildings. Therein lies the problem. the author seems to asume that you can take anything from Astlan or other world and expect it to work or stay fine in the Abyss. As I say the author blatantly ignore physics.

Lampshading it doesn’t resolve the it, but then… oh well.

[Tizzy]

@Rosver

Yes, that was a typo. I meant Ramses place, but typed Exador’s palace.

so just read the thing again knowing I meant Ramses palace but mistyped.

Correct: Exador doesn’t spend much time in the Abyss, this comes up in Book 2, as does his Penthouse in the Courts.

His main domicile is in Astlan and has been for well over a thousand years…he may have other places for his miniions but this has never been mentioned. There is lots of talk of his human minions but not much about his demon ones, yet we know he has them, they were living in the Council Palace for a while, where they went “home to” is an interesting question. Presumably not his castle in Astlan as his humans would freak out.

@Madfoxii

I am also rooting for me to be the Overlord of the Abyss. I’m just not sure how I’m going to know if I am. I’m thinking if I start a rumor about it, maybe in a few thousand years it will become accepted knowledge and I’ll just be the defacto “secret” overlord of the abyss.

Maybe then I can get some demonesses to sleep with me.

[Rosver]

@Madfox

It is not actually a little thing. Such things as pianos, fabrics, cars, and other luxuries abound in the Abyss.

Also it is an ctual physical piano. Demons can bring in objects from Astlan as stated by Antefalken when he was investigating Tom’s cave. That also means they make no modifications to the objects they brought in. It result to a situation akin to placing your stuff into a walk though oven. Even to such temperature as half the boiling point of water as Tizzy claimed, it is still hot for most objects to remain undamaged, especially such instruments as a piano is concered.

The Abyss is also very hot as experienced by Gastrope, Jenn and Maelen. They actually need spells to keep themselves from cooking. And that is in Tom’s cave which is said to be a ‘cooler’ part of the Abyss.

As for experiencing temperature change, it is a bit strange to me that they can’t feel such drastic difference in temperature. Still if they can’t, indications like a certain pentagram, if magical, or an actual airconditioning unit if physical. Since the room has no indications of such, we are left to wonder.

@Tizzy

Since demons are immortal, there would be many who would know who you really are. Unless you kill of those who does know you , which include such demons as Lilith, the probability of that plan’s success is zero.

@JMX

I use a computer and I also experience someting like this. If you take so long typing your message, posting it results to an error message and the fact that you are now not logged in. Sometimes have to save my message in the clip board or text editor, log in again, and copy paste the message.

[Author]

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