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Erm… why are collapsed buildings against somebody’s vanity? There have been humans who spend fortunes to build a ruin in their garden, and since demons love to destroy, one would imagine they like the look of destroyed buildings as well (especially if they got to do the destroying).
[quote=Rosver;1532]@Madfox:
The Court changes then confirmed that? Don’t you know that cities constantantly changes? Don’t think that New York City looks the same now as it was hundred years ago? Do City of London in 19th century the same City of London now? Or do you think that every city would remain the same and idenitical through the ages for eternity?
Things constantly changes. It is not surprising that The Court changes… because it should. It is the way things work. I would have been more astounded if The Court of Chaos has remain the same since its founding than finding it changing.[/quote]
Yeez, of course I know cities change. Nothing stays the same forever. Although, you might want to visit some of those quint medieval towns in Europe, on the outside they haven’t actually changed that much (except for being cleaner) 😉 A regular visitor though would hardly notice the changes since they tend to be relatively slow and it was a regular visitor who noted how the Courts of Chaos looked this time around.
Anyway, I personally don’t care all that much about these kind of details in a Fantasy world ingrained in magic where our laws of physics clearly do not apply and even less when they have no impact on the story. As I said in an earlier post, trying to explain things often makes it worse by reminding the reader the situation is odd, by adding more questions than you actually answer, by adding something even more unbelievable and by confusing the reader needlessly with details that have nothing to do with the story. No point in going in circles with you about it even though I am the first to say I like the occassional endless discusions about such things 😉
As for logic, we are debating about something that is illogical at its core and has no base on our own reality. Besides, even in our own real world things have been found to be true that would be considered weird and illogical before and it takes dozens of people and years of work to provide the asnwers you seek. Each and every reader/viewer has their own level at which point their suspension of disbelief gets jarred. Mine lies obviously different from yours 😉
Having read many types of fantasy, the idea that the Abyss follows the same physical laws as Earth or is even a real physical place (even when to the observers it appears to be) is just not the first thing I think of. In fact, the shaping by belief / will / desire by the rules of the Abyss is actually more or less my defacto assumption of these places. The fact that the look of the Courts actually changes regularly according to the book only confirmed that idea in my mind. Loosing focus hardly matters since only the most powerful can do it and once established it remains the same until it is actively changed (and the changer usually has to overcome the power of the first shaper). Since most such influence is done subconsciously and fought by the believes of thousends of lesser beings a place usually doesn’t change into D&D Limbo are Elemental Chaos (aka a place were everything changes constantly).
For those fey I mentioned or the shapeshifting dragons Tizzy talked about? 😉
Note btw that I suspect the more powerful demons can hide their nature from less powerful demons. I also got the impression that they sensed the magic of the demons, and as such observed their forms, but if that form looks human, they would see a ‘wizard’ and not a demon. I might be misremembering the details though of that particular part of the story.
Focussing on the little details much? 😉 Is it just me, or is this discussion rather funny. We have people changing into living flames, operating flying ships and riding flying horses and you wonder about such minor technicalities such as how something that looks like a piano operates in something that might or might not be excesively hot? For all we know, it might not even be an actual physical object since the Abyss clearly does not operate by the standard laws of physics we are familiar with 😉 Besides, Tizzy already answered that one. Experienced demons don’t experience temperature changes, but they will always be looking for potential traps by powerful rivals and the carvings might be new. Not to mention Tizzy is hardly all-knowing, and he is likely not a demon prince (although I am rooting for him to be that missing demonic overlord ;)). He might simply not know how things work 😉
[quote=Rosver;1506]Not to mention, poor people, they would have been receiving their god’s wrath because the sacrifices never reach their destination.[/quote]
It might explain why the Mayans suffered those nasty draughts that ultimately lead to their fall*. It certainly sounds like a demon that told them it would be a good idea to throw your sacrifices in your only water source during a draught. And I am sure the Atzecs (and all other native Americans at the time) consider the Europeans and the diseases they brought over to be one hack of a punishment.
* Yes, I am aware this is just one potential theory and there are other potential explanations 😉
(P.S. Why isn’t there a winky smiley?)
Is the Abyss even a real physical place? Or would it be more akin to the Umbra from the World of Darkness or the Fade from Dragon Age*? If the later, most of what you see and feel in the place if just sort of an image placed upon the world by those around (the demon lords in this case) and/or what is in the real world nearby. It could also be something akin to the upper planes and astral domains of many D&D worlds, in which case it is physical, but highly mutable by those powerful enough to pose their will on the region. In those worlds you can litterally have freezing ice wastes directly next to boiling hot rock deserts.
* Granted, physical beings like humans normally have difficulty entering these places physically (most often accomplished through dreams), but there are powerful magics which it as can certain beings that are both spiritual and physical (werewolves in the World of Darkness).
While I am usually not a fan of “because it is magic”, I must say that worrying about how something works in the Abys, feels a bit to me like overthinking stuff. Demons are litterally beings of magic, making certain apparently technological stuff work because of magic seems to be a perfect valid explanation. It is not as if the minor demons can even import stuff and they have had litterally centuries to think of sollutions. I certainly hope not to see too many detailed explanations on how such minor things work. I have seen people make it worse by adding either more contradictions (ME3: if assari do not use the DNA from their partners when mating, how do pure bloods generate those freaky things?) or make it even less believable for people who know how things work (ME3: the whole Quarian stuff around allergies which clashes with the weak immune system of ME1, let alone with using antibiotics to treat it).
As for using RW earth references, please, keep them. It is not as if we have much common ground with demons. Sure, the demons might not drink alcohol, but apparently there is an equivalent substance. If you keep sticking to the local references, you also keep explaining stuff, which only increases the chance of confusion. Not to mention that you are creating expactations, to give an example of another book I recently read, if you create your own military ranking system, but keep calling kings kings and ministers ministers, you are adding needless confusion to the reader. I certainly had trouble keeping the rank system straight, and it was not even important to the story (which had very little to do with the military). As for the wine, making it ‘drink’ would have been smarter, but give TAG a break, how many things are called ‘wine’ in the real world and the littery world which have no relation at all with the liquor made out of fermented grapes? o:)
Typical human, scared about something that is out of their control and does not matter much in the first place. There is always evil and danger, you must always be careful whom you trust and how are demons more dangerous than for example a mad wizard (or even a sane one)? And if your fey are even remotely like ours, that would be worrisome as well. In other words, sure, that wizard you talking with might be a polymorphed demon, a fey under an illusion or exactly what he looks like, but in all of those cases angering him would be a bad idea and trusting them is equally risky…
Now I am curious… Do the wizards know there are other worlds? Do they realize the demons visit multiple worlds? Are they aware the demons could actually tell them about advanced technology? A society rich in magic has little reason to develop certain technological advances since the earlier versions tend to be really ineffecient (especially compared to magic), but the more advanced versions most definitely are (unless the far majority of people has a magic talent).
[quote=Tizzy;1441]Well, so far the most common thing is to be having an out of body experience and run into a wizard or two on the astral plane.
Timing seems to be a big issue, those wizards aren’t that predictable.
Which is why i’m working on my own plans to raise a demon army…still working out the details…
I’m calling it “The Rapture” it’s going to be a mass vacuuming of souls from the planes of men into the Abyss as demons.
I’ve been working on it for a century or two now. My concern is that someone might leak my plans…
I’ve also heard some rumors that some people may have gotten a bit mixed up about where they’re going when I rapture them but…hey it’ll be a pleasant surprise…I’m sure.
[/quote]
Wouldn’t be control be more of an issue? Most of those displaced humans are going to be seriously pissed off… It might work if you get them to leave voluntarily, but then again, the kind of people that actually want to become a demon are not exactly the kind of people easy to control 😉
As for beta-reading, I am split on the issue. I have done my fair share of D&D adventure development and editing for Wizard of the Coast’s various organized play programs and I love doing it. At the same time, it requires a different outset when actually reading the material, which does come at the cost of simple reading enjoyment if you get what I mean. It certainly costs more energy and it can be time consuming. Of course, I could simply read it, but then I would capture only the more glaring errors or the occasional minor one by accident and then it would be fairer to simply wait for the release 😉
[quote=Rosver;1406]Also many religion doesn’t really use blood/human sacrifices. Many use animal sacrifices. Some offer food and wine. Mostly they just create a place of worship. The fact is, even though human sacrifices does happen, it is very rare. Many religion doesn’t really do that.[/quote]
Depends how far back you look and how you define religious human sacrifice. The Mayans, Atzecs, and Celts most assuredly sacrificed humans, even if their later conquerors likely exaggarated the numbers for public relational purposes. Furthermore, when god-king emporers kill their slaves, servants and wives/concubines at their death to be buried with them, it could be considered a religious sacrifce. Mind you, I have never come across any reference to virginity in regards to human sacrifice except in the relative modern/christinized versions of myths and fairy tales either. Of course, little is known about the details of said religions and most of what is known is through the conquerors who have reason to put their targets in a bad light.
Just because I disagree with you, does not mean I am a wizard lover [-x
Than again, I am a trickster spirit, and I find wizards amusing. All that arrogance, so easy to manipulate into doing foolish things :-“
[quote=Tizzy;1429]Yes, look at how all the wizards have bound together to fight and enslave the demons.
That’s the perfect example of the evil guys banding together to oppress the good guys![/quote]
Wait? The wizards are a unified forces that work together as a unified front to deal with the demons? That is a first. Hack, the whole book starts with wizards killing one another (even if at the behest of a demon, his dupes, err I mean underlings, are normal mortals). Just take a look at what does happen when the wizards actually do work together, and even that is not to kill demons, merely to kick uninvited guests out of the city 😉
