Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Yeah. Tom seems to have those abilities. Tom seems to have an affinity to magic links being able to see, touch and even manipulate links mentaly. The possiblity that he could break demon links, change their structure and even take advantage of it is great. He already taken advantage of the links that the Rod’s priest have in his fight against them.
Your observation about wizards and animages seems to be insightful too. I always see the wizards with their need for ‘props’ (as Edwyrd describe it) to quite a hindrance. Animages might be more less extensive but their more freeforming magic and flexibility is a great advantage in a lot of situations.
How… common… cliche… typical?
In my assessment:
Wrath: Well, demons seems to be trigger happy when it comes to violence. Tom is quite disapointed because of his rather violent behavior.
Lust: Tom seems to have a amazing control over his sexuality, though he does have no sense of modesty… like children, they love running naked you know.
Glottony: Well how can a demon be a glutton when they get hungry or even the desire to feed? They also don’t seem to consume much fluids or anything material. Demons seems to be free from this form of sin.
Greed: A common trait associated with dragons, hoarding gold and all. Tom seems to be immune to this, he is even damn broke and don’t seem to mind it much. Other demons also doesn’t seem to have much interest with treasures except when necessary.
Pride: Aside from Lenamare, other characters seems to have quite typical level of pride. Even Exador seems to be less inclined to this. Ramses might be quite showy and extravagant but he seems to be more of sticking to the traditions of Pharaohs than doing it out of ego.
Envy: Now this i didn’t see in any demons so far.
Sloth: With Exador’s dedication for getting the book, Ramses feat of nearly enslaving Astlan, and Toms rather dedicated protection of his newfound friends; demons seems to be very capable of diligence. Many demons though has hedonistic streak but innactivity seems not to be a problem.
From what I can see, Astlanian demons seems to be a creature of Wrath and Violence… as are Dragons creatures of greed and Satyrs creatures of Lust. So if their is a struggling that Tom has with his demonic nature it is with Wrath and not with the other six.
Knowledge is power, but then Tom is terribly lacking in knowledge about magics though he seems to get lucky with some of them. Where would he get the knowledge though. If he teach himself and through trial and error, he might produce some quite unique and interesting magics that might never been seen before.
Well, I was able to catch that little error the first time I read it. It might be because I have some knowledgable about books and bookmaking.
The amount of gold in Smaug’s room was just ridiculous. It might have been more of an artistic licence (an extreme one) than reality. The movie makers might just want to impress the audience with computer generated glitters, even if it is extremely absurd.
[quote]And thus…in Astlan, while gold is valuable, it’s not anywhere near as valuable as it really was. This is because it isn’t that valuable in fantasy worlds.[/quote]
But there are tales of these “golden fleece,” “golden apples,” “piles of gold” and what not is typical to fantasy fare.
Also even if gold isn’t really that valuable as you say, it is still valuable. It is still isn’t cheap.
Also my point is that Jenn uses an expensive decoration for something so wasteful even if gold is valuable but isn’t that valuable. No one for example would… say… wear tuxedo when farming, or install bulletproof glass on the garden shed windows.
——————
So the glass. As I just said, the problem is with mental concentration.
I made a comment to Tizzy about Astlan magic not really adapted to mass production. The reason is simple, Astlan magic requires a great deal of concentration. Even just using a wand, like when Jehanna paralyzes the horses, requires them to focus and concentrate.
I bring back your comment about using magic to essentiall photo copy/zerox the books pages. That isn’t really true. The difference? Concentration. No one could actually concentrate for very long because concentrating isn’t a very exhausting mental process. Sooner or later your mind would wander or get exhausted. That is my problem with these task as copying books, weaving, and making the large glass table. They just require immense and long periods of concentration if they are really done with magic.
Using a zerox machine to copy a 300 page book might just be boring, but concentrating on copying a 300 page book is damn mentally exhausting. It isn’t really that much different kind of mental task as copying the book by hand. Weaving is the same thing. So essentially with these tasks, the drudgery still exist and doesn’t actually change, which means, they aren’t really much of an improvement as to make anything that cheap as suggested by the book.
The glass table is a bit different. It also requires you to essentially concentrate on two task at once. The first task is to keep the glass liquid (by using a magic furnace) and the other task is to mold the liquid glass flat. And you know about multitasking, people just can’t do that. Maybe that can be resolved when there are actually two or more wizard who works on the glass. Do, there is also the problem of concentrating for the whole time the task is done.
Even with preconfigured spells and tools, the need for concentration is a great barrier for doing many task. At least with machines and automation, the mental drudgery is avoided, with magic it is required and actually multiplied in some task.
This is what I keep mentioning that you seem not to pay attention to. I repeat. The problem is with the mental concentration required for these magical tasks. Our mental concentration isn’t really very reliable. Even just doing meditiation is difficult.
So you must realize the problem of the molten glass not going balistic by just concentrating on it? How long could you hold it?
Hmm. Is that so? Still, the book seems to say that magic requires the user to concentrate everytime they use magic and while they are using magic as said by many of the users, that includes Tom, Lenamare, Jehanna, etc. I actually thought that was the reason why Zargoffelstan escaped his warding. It was because Hortwell loss concentration.
We also seem to be comparing apples to oranges. Bookmaking, weaving and glass-making is very different from swords, shields, armor and gates. The first are crafts while the later are equipments. Unless you have the Disney type magic where a wave of the wand makes the scissors, needles, pins, etc. to come alive, fly around and start sewing a beautiful gown by themselves; then you are still be going to focus your mind through all the dreadful stuff of sewing the gown stitch by stitch.
So even if magic makes things easier for wizards than for ordinary people, it should not be to the point where books, paper and pens (and other items) are ‘nothing of real value’ to someone like Jenn.
As for the carpet, even if it just hovers in place you are still flying. You are just flying it in place. Also the car analogy is bad. For one thing, if the car isn’t moving, you cease to drive. A more appropriate analogy would be a helicopter. You can make the helicopter just hover in place, but, unlike the car, you are still driving it. It might not use as much mental energy to keep the helicopter hovering, but you won’t start playing candy crush.
Well… concentration… from the book:
While Tom was being summoned:
“To the right, a middle-aged woman, lines of concentration etched on her brow.”
and later:
“OK, so it did put a strain on me; but, I did manage to maintain my pose and concentration, and not reveal my weakness to the demon.”
When the wizards is building the wards around the school:
“Now, the inner circle joined in, “All is contained by the Eleven Pentagrams of Power, now and forevermore.” The voices and minds of the other wizards joined their brethren, “We are the Thirteen Who Control. Our hands are the guiding force, our wills the pillars of power.”
Well Hortwell also was thinking about Lenamare’s point of view:
“…Lenamare felt that a good wizard should be able to command demons with essentially the strength of his own will and magic alone,…”
And when they are doing their evacuation Lenamare said:
“Only I possess the skill and the willpower necessary to cast and maintain the powerful illusions needed to fool Exador into thinking that we’re all still here.”
When Jehenna was summoning Tom, Jenn is quite aghast:
“Only Jehenna’s will and the ring would keep it from destroying them.”
There are plenty of others that echoes similar sentiments, while there is really no acknowledgement, at least directly, that certain spells doesn’t even need a thought or preparation to maintain.
—————–
Of course using these magical items doesn’t require much concentration. Crafting something however does require a lot of focus and concentration. I just can’t think how people could say create a doll house without even looking at what they are doing. There are just activities like crafts (crocheting, paper mache, glass working), arts (drawing, painting, sculpture) and others (driving, juggling, reading) that requires focus and concentration. When these tasks are combined with magic, the demand for focus actually increases. Even though these tasks might require less mana or so, the intricacies of the actions demands a lot of your concentration from the start, adding the necessary concentration required by the spell isn’t really easing anything mentally.
And well, there wasn’t really much about carpets in the book. Never know that they have autopilot feature albeit limited to just keeping the carpet hovering.
…and then, another bad analogy. A canoe floats, a carpet flies; and waves and winds are mechanically different. The closest water is to a wind would be currents, and currents by itself is unlikely to cause canoes to flip. And like currents, big winds is unlikely to flip over airborne objects though it would blow them away.
“Now some wizard spells do require much more interaction and concentration. Scrying spells in particular, some levitation and flying spells etc.”
This is all I was trying to say too about making books, glass making and such. If there are really spells for these, then they need the interaction and concentration you are talking about.
—————
Uhm… I guess you kinda confused the meaning of ‘craft’ that I was talking about. I was not talking about crafted objects, I was talking about the process of making them.
—————
About Hortwell: never had thought of that while I was reading the book. No explanation no anything that points to that conclusion. Should have been made clear so as not to result to wrong conclusions.
And damn! Hortwell is so lucky Zargoffelstan didn’t rip his guts as Boggy advised to as a means of testing. Of all demons available, Hortwell was able to acquire a good one like Z. Good for him.
As for Jenn. I think that passage should have been written better to make clear that she was talking about their sentimental value. The previous paragraph that talks about money really imprint that she was talking about monetary value at that time. The “but it was all she owned in the entire world” that end the sentence seems to reinforce the monetary instead of the sentimental element.
“if she was possession oriented”
I’m not saying that at all. And, after all, just because she is not possession oriented doesn’t mean that she won’t consider the monetary aspect of things. And duh! The quote was taken from a passage where she was mulling over her worldly possessions.
Also, how should I know that Thaumaturgy doesn’t generate that much money? Or that others generates more?
But then, why should it not generate much money? It seems to me that it is one of the most useful magic available. There should be lots of need for healers and menders, and the ability to manipulate earth is also quite a very useful ability with lots of applications.
Maou, quite interesting concepts. From what I can see, magic is done through Links. Tom seems to be able to see this links, interact with them and even manipulate them, so Tom might be able to do those things. It’s not clear if other magic users could do what Tom can but it is quite implied that only Tom seems to be able to do so. Some sort of ability?
“I ask as wizardry is a form of mana-engineering and from what I know it is much simpler to destroy or disrupt something that has been engineered than it is to either build or maintain it.”
This isn’t exactly true. Some things like locks, safes, bulletproof glass are difficult to destroy. So are buildings, tunnels, etc. These things are engineered to last. But then there are objects that isn’t designed with durability in mind. These objects aren’t engineered to sustain large amount of stress. Of course, one has to wonder how magic users design their magics and how they make their magics (like spell of the magicaly locked book) resist any influence of external magic.
@The Author Guy:
“It’s a very mixed up universe for the simple fact that if you introduce magic to a “real” medieval world, weird shit suddenly starts happening.”
But in Astlan magic has existed for like… forever. It was not introduced like a few months or so. For something that has existed for such a long long time but still doesn’t integrate well into the world is more than strange.
“Traditional fantasy is extremely unrealistic, unless the magic is extremely scarce, civilization will not follow anything close to the path it did on Earth and you won’t have a “classic fantasy world” after a very short while.
A Song of Ice and Fire is a place where magic makes about the most sense for a medieval world. Because it’s very rare/very hard to do.”
And since magic has existed in Astlan since forever; Astlan should have been very, very different from medieval earth. In Astlan however, similarities is more prevalent that differences. In Song of Ice and Fire, magic isn’t as common like in Astlan. People there don’t steal technologies from other worlds. Teleportation isn’t a very common mode of transportation there either. Magic there is mysterious, strange, trully ‘magical’ in traditional sense; not ‘scientific’ like magic in Astlan is described to be.
“When you have a magic rich world in a fantasy book, it will literally turn the economy of the medieval world upside down, and all bets are off, things won’t follow the path that they did on Earth. There will be all sorts of incongruities and discrepancies.”
True it will not follow the same development as ‘earth’ medieval world thus the discrepancies from ‘earth’ medieval period. But that is not the problem. The problem is the technological discrepancies in Astlan itself not Astlan from medieval earth. It is like people are watching news with a 42 inch flat screen 3d tv but still uses electrical telegraph to send message to each other. That is really an extreme example but still, the point the technological level in Astlan is not homogeneous.
“As Tizzy argues, it’s not that different than suddenly introducing all the “magic” of 21st century technology and capitalism on Africa, the middle East and eastern Europe/Russia.”
As I just stated before, magic is not suddenly introduced in Astlan at the present, it has been there for a long time, even longer than writed history of ‘our’ earth.
@Tizzy:
LOL
@The Author Guy and Tizzy:
Sorry for making such a mess here with my nitpicking and so. Never have dreamed the discussion would go this way. Should have keep my (digital) mouth shut.
It is really not the magical objects that is nagging me. The magical objects in Astlan is quite ‘standard’ fantasy fare. What does disturb me are the ordinary nonmagical objects like the books, Damien’s glass top table, the wine bottle, the locks, etc. From what I can refer, they are modern objects instead of the more appropriate medieval versions… which essentially should not have been used that much because these objects are uncommon and expensive in those times.
I was also bemused in how advanced they have in knowledge about electrons, protons, neutron and they even know quarks… but they somehow has no knowledge about nuclear reactions (Lenamare’s nuclear bomb). These elementary particles and quarks are discovered and observed using nuclear reactions, usually controlled in particle accelerators.
@The Author Guy:
You explanations are making me even more confused:
First Jenn isn’t the Vatican, yet she can acquire one rather readily… for a mundane purpose. There are also several notebooks as well. Jenn can’t be that wealthy. That imply that books are quite cheap and common such that ordinary people could readily buy one. She also knows how to read and write but there is no apparent teacher for these fields in the school which imply that reading and writing is quite wide spread and teached outside magic schools which reinforce the appearance that books are quite ordinary.
You are also quite wrong as to why books are rare. The main reason they are so is becase they are expensive, overly so and time consuming. To bind hundreds of pages… do I realy had to repeat myself?
In the past, the most wealthy enough to afford books in numbers are the church. Other people, even many of the nobles, has no resources spend/waste to acquire a book. To have a book in those times is an indication of extreme wealth. The books essentially become symbol of wealth for many people. That is why the invention of the printing press and other technological developments of bookmaking was revolutionary. They had made books accesible to the masses.
There is also the fact that Jenn’s book and Lenamare’s book looks the same except age. One is new and one is a very old artifact. You just have to wonder how could this happen? It is like finding a thousand of years old Harry Potter book in an ancient Pharao’s tomb.
As for paper making:
“I mean those things more often make vinegar than wine.”
They have problems making a common chemical reaction go right, why would the chemical processess of making paper be easier? Making wine is a lot older ‘technology’ than making paper and is consumed more in history than paper does, yet they master the later and not the former.
The glass table is also very difficult to place. A large flat smooth piece of glass is very, very difficult to create. Glass just don’t lend itself to flat smooth forms.
They might be supposedly anachronistic but there is no hint or pointer on how could this happen.
And beside, why do they have such advanced stuff like the glass on the table but use primitive for the likes of clothes or lighting or transportation? Why?
They might be supposed to be anachronistic but there is really no sense on how they could be there or why only those things are anachronistic and not the others.
As for the CoD, yes it is the narator but:
“Naturally, a theoretical magic student may wonder at what happens to the incredible amounts of binding energy that are released in this occurrence.”
That sentence make it known that this field of magic is well studied, well understood and known by many. How come only Lenamare is the only one to understand about such things?
Also one doesn’t have to know about Quantum Theory to know about nuclear reactions just like no one needs to know about relativity to know about gravity. Understanding Quantum Theory does gives you more detail about nuclear reactions but people has made nuclear bombs and nuclear power plants long before the quantum theory is even developed.
Also power doesn’t equate to magical knowledge. Tom is obviously powerful but his magical knowledge is almost nil. Often times, the weakest are the most knowledgable primarily because powerful individuals often use brute force to solve problems.
Also nuclear reactions are different from Quantum Field Theory. Essentially the later is made/deduced to explain the former. Scientist study nuclear reactions and from the studies, deduced the existence of quarks. Then further studies and expirements are made to ‘prove’ if the theory is true. This is very similar to the Relativity Theory, it was deduced first and later found to be quite correct gaining Einstien his popularity.
Thus for knowledge about quarks to be available, the knowledge of nuclear reactions have to come first. That is what dumbfounded me. Its like these people know how to do advanced gymnastics but doesn’t know how to jump! Or knowing about electrons but not knowing about electricity!
So why does these people know about quarks but not nuclear reactions?
And I already know that I’m only seeing the rich and the powerful. I already said so to Tizzy. We had this argument about poor and rich and how that explains the technological inconsistencies but there are only the rich in this book.
And we also have these discussion about these technologies in the Abyss. Alcohol fuel for cars? Explosions muct probably be frequent or their supply of fuel probably would evaporate before it reaches the tank.
——————————————————-
I’m glad I was able to help somehow even though I’m seeing this as some sort of nitpicking that should’nt have been started in the first place. I really hate it when we just talk about bad stuff and not about the good ones like how terribly addicting the story is. Had read it dozens of times and would probably read it some more. I don’t mind those inconsistency and such stuff that much really.
Mokeys’s Paw! Very creepy story. But wait… isn’t it a short story? As I remember it is an award winning short story not a folk lore.
It is a short story. I made a goggle search and here is a Wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Monkey%27s_Paw
It was published in 1902 and has been parodied and adapted many times. I was wrong about the award winning thing but it is popular. I remembered that xxxHolic (anime) has a “monkey’s paw” episode:
Oh! It must be these demons who write those horrible books and make those horrible movies. Demons are just horrible out to give us horrible experiences. Some of the books just makes me wanna projectile vomit sometimes. Uhhh!
There are more of those horrible writers in every genre.
Technology in Astlan and Abyss is very much incoherent at most times.
Jenn’s diary for example had surprised me, for such a person to have one and used for such mundane writing, the book must have been affordable. There is also a hint that it is mass produced. That just indicates a rather high bookmaking technology.
The image in the welcome page is full of this inconsistencies:
–The wine glasses is of modern style. Old glasses are ornate and heavy.
–The candles looks like modern paraffin wax candles. Such advanced chemistry there. They must have known about petroleum and petroleum refinement.
–High heels?
–The bricks is rather non medieval. Most uses stones in those times.
–The books on the shelves is rather modern. They all have the mass produced look in them.
–The parquet floor. It just speaks so unMedieval.
–The carpet has a modern pattern and such a large carpet isn’t really likely to be made in those times.
–The cushions pattern is again modern.
These are just a few of them.
I was also bemused at the number of technologies found in the Abyss. The steel and concrete and glass skyscrapers is one of them. Where do they get the materials for them? The knowhow on how to build one?
The escalators and moving sidewalk also surprised me. I assume they are magic, but then you mentioned they are plain old science. Wow, how do they make one. The technology for them isn’t really that simple you know. The early form of escalators for example are death traps and tend to break.
Im not that surprised by elevators. It is a rather old technology and the concept is rather simple.
The cars are another astonishment. They are again complex devices. How are demons able to create a working one? Where do they get fuel?
Now the computers, that is just preposterous. They must have stolen them rather than make them. I just can’t see how they are able to make even those old vacuum tube ones.
Really there are a lot of inconsistencies in the book. Still, they are relatively minor and I could ignore them. But there is a danger that they become so absurd.
The technological inconsistencies can’t be explained by trade. You might notice that the book mostly visits the ‘rich’ areas like Lenamare’s school and Freehold. Actually Lenamare’s school and the castle in Freehold are just the places that is described in most detail. The other might be the Veriga’s secret room and the ship. The poor areas and such is barely even mentioned, we don’t really know much about them. The most thing we could get from the book are from the culture of the rich.
As for paper. Yes for thousand of years people had made paper, but, even by machine, a sheet of paper take days to make. Ink isn’t also made with just a flick of the hand. Bookbinding (essentially sewing the pages together) isn’t really that fast either. Also, it is obvious that there is a very strong limitation in using magic; like it can’t be excecuted at great speed and the need for concentration. It is clear that the kind of magic in Astlan doesn’t lend well for production in masse especially of intricate things like bookmaking. It would have deplete their magical reserves very soon or fatigued their mind from constant concentrating. Imagine how mind numbing it might be for a wizard to ‘xerox’ a thousand page book and then turn it into a book.
Armor and space suit? Huh? An airconditioned armor does not a space suit make. Especially when space suit isn’t comfortable, restrict movement, and is no barrier agains a sword.
As for soldiers, what they wear might be of similar purpose. A candle and an LED light has similar purpose but I won’t say that they are of the same technological level. A chain mail and kevlar? You must be kidding me. Want your soldiers walk to Afghanistan in chain mail?
As for this backwater thing. As I just mentioned the most described in the book are the rich.
The poor people? I don’t really know much about them, except maybe that some soldier whip them when they are not able to pay their taxes. Of course they probably be using oil lamps or cressets instead of candles and those glowing globes. They might be binding their feet with rough cloth instead of wearing boots and high heels. They might be living in mud shacks with earth floor instead of ‘brick’ castles with parquet floors. I just don’t know. There is barely any mention of them.
As for the temperature in the Abyss. When Tom was in the “The Ripe Young Maiden’s Surprise” he made the comment about the temperature in the Abyss. It is about the temperature of boiling water. Even half the temperature of boiling point of water is still very hot. Storing chemicals in that temperature isn’t really advised, alcohol is one of them.
But please. These kind of things doesn’t really bother much my reading experience. Put them behind my mind
