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[quote=Mikey;7480][quote=Rakshasa;7319][quote=Dirk Flamberge;7315]There’s childish whining and then there’s WoT whining, and it’s not just that it’s the overall emasculation of all the male characters and how all the female characters are scheming psychopaths, and how no matter what is done feels absolutely pointless, how it felt like the main characters were essentially Railroaded along with 0 character growth.[/quote]
Fair enough. Although, all things being equal the emasculation of men in the novels and the resultant problems that it created in the books (and yes, the author did note it once or twice)…[/quote]
I bought a bunch of novels for the summer holidays, and I have to say that three books in a row not-so-subtly concentrating on extolling the virtues of Grrrl Power left an aftertaste of crude propaganda as strong as the North Korean TV variety.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSLnuos5pkw[/youtube]
Can’t we have equality, do men really have to be stupid, spineless, cowardly, and willing targets of ridicule in Science Fiction and Fantasy literature from now on? So many authors have turned on the faucet, that I suppose this is what American TV storytelling became at some point of the writers’ youth or childhood.
And if you want to write propaganda, can’t you at least not insult my intelligence and perception, do you have to be so crude and unsophisticated about it?[/quote]
Completely agreed. It’s frustrating that a great many authors feel that the only way to make women be smart or capable is to make men useless and/or stupid. It’s not really a big surprise though, they’ve been shoving that philosophy into most college graduates (and most authors do attend college at some point) so strongly that I suspect that most of them have a hard time separating the reality from the inane feminist nonsense.
Maybe that’s his plan to avoid you Tizzy. He’s hoping if you don’t get any Earth money you will stop harassing him and he can spend his time doing whatever it is that he feels is more important than writing your books.
[quote=Britt;7428]Just a thought but with Tom/Orcus being a god-like being. It would be interesting if he and Tiernon’s sister started something up. That would really piss a-lot of people off and cause all kinds of fun chaos throughout the pantheons. Like I said, just a thought.[/quote]
First, Tiernon has 2 sisters.
Second, they are Orcus’s step-sisters so it’s kinda eww. Not wrong like a real sister would be, but a little icky. But that’s from a “mortal” perspective, for the Gods even being actual siblings seems less likely to invoke that response.
Regardless, I find that insanely unlikely because his being involved with Doom and the Abyss would be a major nightmare for her I would imagine… and the same for him as well (just in reverse). Although as Lilith already wants him dead it really is less of an issue for him I suppose… but if it aggravated Samael that would put Doom in a very awkward position.
[quote=Tizzy;7392]Excellent point!
You know, I know we have (more than a few) openings in the PR department here at the Forces of Evil HQ. Are you open to new positions? (rack, iron maiden, Catherine Wheel, Judas Cradle–we have the latest in ergonomic office furniture) Sure, it means a small relocation, but wouldn’t it be nice to get out of that chilly climate of yours to something a tad warmer? Like maybe 85C warmer?
[/quote]
Not to be mean Tizzy, but I’m pretty sure that it’s statements like yours (this one specifically, mind you) that really hurts the FoE PR department. I mean we all realize that you aren’t intending to sound evil or cruel… but it’s pretty easy to twist them into statements that people (I.E non-ascended/descended humans and other mortals) take as threatening or hostile.
Most mortals have this weird desire to avoid sensations that cause pain after all.
[quote=Tizzy;7396][quote=Rakshasa;7394]
Not to be mean Tizzy, but I’m pretty sure that it’s statements like yours (this one specifically, mind you) that really hurts the FoE PR department. I mean we all realize that you aren’t intending to sound evil or cruel… but it’s pretty easy to twist them into statements that people (I.E non-ascended/descended humans and other mortals) take as threatening or hostile.
[/quote]What? I thought ergonomic office furniture was a big plus? You know like these employers who give their peeps “standing desks” and expect them to stand all day long? Or how about those rolly ball things that they make people sit on?
[quote=Rakshasa;7394]
Most mortals have this weird desire to avoid sensations that cause pain after all.
[/quote]But with no pain, there is no gain, yes? I just want people to be gainfully employed!
[/quote]
See there’s ergonomic and then the usage of words like Iron Maiden which confuse mortals. And while I agree that pain is helpful (mistakes too) as a learning tool… most mortals still try to avoid painful things. Hence why you often unintentionally create PR opportunities for the FoG… you aren’t saying things that are actually “evil” or cruel, but they are easily seen as such with only a little twisting because your perspective is so alien to most mortals.
I am forced to admit that my addiction to food is the only reason I feel the need to make money. Unfortunately, I’ve yet to determine a way to kick that particular habit. Not entirely sure if being sent to the Abyss is actually worth kicking the need for food.
Well keep in mind that during most of those meetings he wasn’t certain that the demon they were discussing was actually Orcus. Some of the details made him suspicious, but you can’t plan based purely on suspicions.
And, moreover despite the fact that Orcus isn’t “evil” per-say that doesn’t mean that he hasn’t (and won’t again) come into conflict with the 5 siblings over some things. Obviously, they usually wouldn’t have been at the level as what happened on Etterdam because of the fact that they don’t actually want him killed and potentially freeing their mutual parents… but he IS technically opposed to being a god on principle.
[quote=EyeDeKay;6547][quote=Dirk Flamberge;6544]I kind of lost interest while reading Name of the wind, and for tolkien the movies were enough for me.[/quote]
Why’d you lose interest?
Books are much better. Movie leave out a lot like always. *shudders* Except the eagles.
[/quote]Pff, in the case of the LotR series that things were left out of the movies was actually a good thing. Seriously, I have no idea why Tolkien gets so much acclaim. His books were long-winded, excessive, and boring. I am a voracious reader, and rarely do I stop reading books that are even halfway decent (for instance, I actually read every book in the Wheel of Time series once despite how bad they got between 6-10). But I never was able to get past the what 30 pages whining about misplacing the Ent-wives from Treebeard…. seriously I get it, you lost them. It didn’t need to be that drawn out.
Orcus became a demon by declining to join a Pantheon, and setting up shop in the Abyss. Very much like how Bestat “became” an Arch-demon by making a Demon body for herself. Being a demon isn’t an issue for him, because as he doesn’t maintain a God pool or belong to a pantheon he isn’t prevented from using them…. Doom serves as both for him.
He was able to attend the wedding, because he was invited. Remember Doom isn’t a signatory of the Concords of Conciliation. He slips through the cracks that way, because he didn’t agree not to enter the outer planes. If he was a signatory, he wouldn’t be able to go without breaking his word.
As for Lilith and Sammael, pretty sure even if Sam knew that Orcus was a god he still wouldn’t work with Lilith. He was never on bad terms with Doom, and anything that hurts her is god for Sam. It would make Lilith shit herself no doubt, just like the realization he controls Tartarus (and was dead for 4000 years) would frighten any sane being.
Ultimately though, other than the whole phoenix cycle thing his being a god is mostly not significant. He doesn’t have a god pool or a pantheon pool, so without Doom he would be more or less on par with the Demon Princes. Especially since he doesn’t do any normal god duties… i.e. afterlife and that jazz. He does blur the line with creating D’Orcs. That the Demon Princes don’t try to make more demons isn’t because they can’t. They choose not to… probably because most of them never managed to find a ready pool of people that would line up to become demons, or they simply don’t care enough about events outside the Abyss. (Mostly the later imo, Lilith doesn’t seem to give a damn about anything except the Abyss)
[quote=Dirk Flamberge;7313][quote=Rakshasa;7312][quote=EyeDeKay;6547][quote=Dirk Flamberge;6544]I kind of lost interest while reading Name of the wind, and for tolkien the movies were enough for me.[/quote]
Why’d you lose interest?
Books are much better. Movie leave out a lot like always. *shudders* Except the eagles.
[/quote]Pff, in the case of the LotR series that things were left out of the movies was actually a good thing. Seriously, I have no idea why Tolkien gets so much acclaim. His books were long-winded, excessive, and boring. I am a voracious reader, and rarely do I stop reading books that are even halfway decent (for instance, I actually read every book in the Wheel of Time series once despite how bad they got between 6-10). But I never was able to get past the what 30 pages whining about misplacing the Ent-wives from Treebeard…. seriously I get it, you lost them. It didn’t need to be that drawn out.[/quote]
Not sure how you managed to get yourself to read through the totality of WoT, i think i only made it to 3 or 4 and had to give up because of all the whining and the useless male characters.[/quote]
Yeah, that’s sort of my point. I got attached enough to Rand and some of the other characters that I was willing to suffer through them. The ones that Brandon Sanderson finished were totally awesome… so they were easy. But even considering that, I still couldn’t stomach to finish “The Two Towers”. Tolkien, in my opinion, gets way to much credit. He wasn’t particularly original, as he just stole the mythological world of the Norse and made a few changes (primarily the elves). Admittedly, that’s not much different than most authors… but the part that annoys me is that his story wasn’t well told.
And as for WoT male heroes being whiny… how many 16-18 year old boys do you know that wouldn’t whine in the situation that Rand, Matt, and Perrin found themselves in? Yes, it got annoying. But it’s somewhat expected when you are dealing with adolescents. Truthfully, that’s one of my bigger gripes with a lot of modern fantasy stories where they have “children” as the primary heroes. They are always so completely mature and have no obvious need to whine and gripe about their bad luck. Which is part of why I like Tom… because while he does whine sometimes and clearly needs to mature he doesn’t whine ALL the time.
[quote=Dirk Flamberge;7315]There’s childish whining and then there’s WoT whining, and it’s not just that it’s the overall emasculation of all the male characters and how all the female characters are scheming psychopaths, and how no matter what is done feels absolutely pointless, how it felt like the main characters were essentially Railroaded along with 0 character growth.[/quote]
Fair enough. Although, all things being equal the emasculation of men in the novels and the resultant problems that it created in the books (and yes, the author did note it once or twice)… to me somewhat spoke to the reality in the United States where feminism has been emasculating men (among other things) for the last 50 years and the result was how it (Feminism) destroyed the idea of the American family. But that’s me.
For the record, I don’t think the family needs a man to be the “breadwinner” I would quite happily get married let her do all the “work” by having a job. Working sucks. But I do think that children need fathers and mothers to properly learn how to interact with the world. Strong male (or female) role models could be used in lieu of having opposite sex parents… but most single parent families don’t have that either.
[quote=Konicomi;7346]yes but he had a oath with the 5 siblings of loyalty and fraternity that they broke on emtterdam when orcus was fighting neet and im guessing sentier told the churches to go against orcus however he didn’t go against them until then due to keeping his oath as he always did and it is true he didnt know for sure it was orcus however when speaking about finding out about his machinations he was assuming it was orcus reborn at the time and just because he didnt want to be a god didnt make him evil he was on the side of the underdog not the “evil” like the knights of chaos he was theoretically against true evil based on him building a prison and imprisoning his seriously evil mother based on greek mythos[/quote]
Actually, saying the 5 siblings broke their Oath isn’t fair. Tiernon and Torean broke the oath. The other 3 made it pretty clear in Apostles of Doom that they told their followers not to oppose Orcus, and that they were angry with their brothers for not doing the same. This doesn’t, of course, mean that Orcus won’t hold all 5 responsible for what happened… just that 3 of them are technically not oath breakers.
As for Orcus not being aggressive against the 5 siblings on Etterdam… well he probably wasn’t in a position where he could. Fighting Net’s forces alone was probably a serious drain for Doom, pretty sure he is the El’asdir God of War. He did have most of his D’Orcs on Etterdam at that time (noted by the D’Orcs on Nysegard being so few after his death) which shows that he needed to draw down forces elsewhere to have enough might to oppose Net. I suspect that Sentir Fallon, being the deceptive and treacherous bastard that he is, likely didn’t bring the church into direct opposition with Orcus until shortly before they were ready to kill Orcus. Obviously, that could easily be a few decades but that still wouldn’t have let Orcus enough time to start punishing his step-brother for the “betrayal”… especially since he had no idea that he was about to be “permanently” destroyed by an antimus filled dagger. Note: I’m not saying that the Etterdam Church of Tiernon hadn’t entered the conflict against the Orcs and D’Orcs prior to Sentir Fallon… just that they weren’t a major threat without Sentir Fallon who undoubtedly brought other Tierhallic (i.e. heavenly assets, mana, Saints, Archons, etc) support.
And I agree, he isn’t evil. I’m pretty sure I specified that he isn’t evil, just that his opposition to other gods could bring him into conflict with his step-siblings on occasion.
