Time Frame on next book

[Rosver]

See? Can’t justify it. Trying so would just raise more questions and inconsistency. I do hope that something good would come out of this as the author is blatantly ignoring physics.

At 30,000 feet people would die, not just for lackof air but by the lack of air pressure itself and Tom’s cave being higher than the Court of Chaos. Jenn and Gastrpe should have drop dead, or at least experience the Bends. Assuming that the air pressure at sea level in the Abyss is sme as in earth.

Also, when people talk of boiling point of water, that means its boiling point at sea level, which is 212 degrees, just like the speed of light is when light travels through vacuum, not through glass or diamond. It is so unless said otherwise.

I thought there is no day and night in the Abyss, so say Antefalken.

As for Superman reversing time by using his super speed. There is just alot of wrong with it:

>high speed can’t reverse time, in fact, at speed of light time stops. Though, it is a scientifically accepted way to time travelling to the future.
>Reversing earth’s rotation won’t reverse time. It could actually end the world as we know it.
>What Superman did should not have reversed earth’s rotation. He doesn’t make contact with earth while he was circling the earth so it would not have been affected. Gravity pull won’t either since his mass if to miniscue to affect earth visibly.
>Why don’t he use his supper speed to stop the missles in the first place?

The Superman example is just there for its incredible stupidity. The writers of the script must have left their brains outside the studio when making it.

[Iume]

We know that electronics work (somehow) in the Abyss because it was observed that they could work. So many reasons exist as to why it is possible such as magic, different laws of physics, different construction techniques, psychic ability, or fluid reality. It might not work on Earth, but clearly it works in the Abyss.

I admit that from an Earthling’s POV the logic is flawed, but assuming we survived the Abyss to observe in person it is clear that the Abyss somehow manages it. For all we know demon’s subconsciously exude energy that halts the degradation of the material so that their desires are met much like how they manage to fly.

Think about it. Demons are almost like angels which may just be a step below the gods. Can demons become gods? Can they have enough power over a non-material plane? We know that the courts morph over time as they change themes. I am having trouble imagining that the demons actually take the effort to reconstruct it. When I first found out that the demons themed their court I thought that it was a mental construct made reality by the sheer will of the demon’s collective skills and backed by the immense power of the top demons.

Perhaps the Abyss is actually just a field of energy (like the demons) shaped into a physical form but completely able to change with sufficient concentration / belief. And maybe they can change non-living things that are brought over so that they too become energy bound to a shape. I suspect it is harder to make something from imagination (god powers?) than to take something existing and changing it.

Edit: Maybe Tom will notice this very problem in the next book and hang a lampshade on it with simple dismissal of “it works”?

[Iume]

[quote=Rosver;1525]@lume:
These technologies are not made by demons, they stole them. Demons open gates to another world (say Astlan), grab what they want, then bring it to the Abyss.
[/quote]
I probably wasn’t clear on this. I meant, just because it was stolen doesn’t mean it wasn’t modified. Somehow.

[quote=Rosver;1525]>Magic has issues since very few demons could do magic.[/quote]
They may not be able to so formal spells like a wizard or like a higher-ranked demon but they still managed to do things that defy our physics. It must be something, so why not magic? It is also suggested that the energy / animus that demons are is part of magic and they can manipulate it somewhat so perhaps demons are partly magic & have an instinctive rather than conscious control over it.

[quote=Rosver;1525]>Different law of Physics. So somehow the physics collaborate such that things the demon stole works fine in the Abyss? Why not say they explode instead? Or become dangerous to demons? Or turn to gas? Or infinite other such possibilities that makes what they took useless? Why such specific and rather helpful law? This is esseentially a hand wave.
[/quote]
Oh, I know it was a hand wave, but we also know that fireballs ignite, explode, and contract in mid-air after coming out of nothing. Why can’t the “laws of physics” may be made up in this realm? Although they wouldn’t hold together if subjected to a logical analysis but they may also be held together by the demons’ will even if it isn’t a conscious effort.

[quote=Rosver;1525]>Different construction techniques. Won’t work, the problem here is materials. For example many plastic would melt at high temperatures. No matter how you construct that plastic chair, since its plastic, it would melt.
[/quote]
Would this include military grade equipment with it higher tolerances? Can the matter of an item be changed as it is brought though even if the visual is unchanged?

[quote=Rosver;1525]>Psychic ability. The demons don’t have that abilty. And if they do, they need to focus their atention to it. What if their master called them? Goodbye plastic chair?
[/quote]
Eh, call it psychic ability or animus ability. Both can be described as mental thought & concentration to affect a change to the world. Call it what you will. However, I do agree that a loss of attention may cause it to fail, but what if it is a case of belief = reality? It isn’t easy to believe something you know to be untrue, but because the demon’s accept that they can pull things over and have it safely endure, it does. However, they also know that living things can’t tolerate the heat for long, so they don’t. Just throwing it out there.

[quote=Rosver;1525]>Fluid reality. Eh? Do you know what that means? You taken too much liberty with it. Its like X-men where genes enable mutants to control the weather or control magnetism.
[/quote]
If there is a formal definition then nope! I was using the term “fluid reality” to describe a situation where what we perceive to be true can be changed. I was deliberately implying god-like powers, super-psychics, and non-material realities. What is a plane? How does it work? How does it differ? These are not really discussed except for the Astral Plane. Maybe the Abyss (Abyss Plane?) is a plane with its own rules and they are subject to change unlike Astlan which may be a fixed plane whose rules cannot be changed.

[quote=Rosver;1525]Well, the demons actually stole those things probably even those buildings. Therein lies the problem. the author seems to asume that you can take anything from Astlan or other world and expect it to work or stay fine in the Abyss. As I say the author blatantly ignore physics.

Lampshading it doesn’t resolve the it, but then… oh well.[/quote]

Yep! As long as the world is internally consistent I’ll accept it. It doesn’t have to be explained. I know that lampshading doesn’t explain it, but if we have Tom notice the fact, [i]notice that it doesn’t matter[/i], and then move on I’ll be fine and consider the issue resolved because it works within the framework of the story. Of course, he could also look deeper and learn to abuse his knowledge, but there are demons from higher-tech worlds which could have done the same, but it seems didn’t so… who knows?

Also, regarding the buildings… I’ll have to re-read but I don’t recall the buildings being stolen so much as the idea. Then you have to wonder about how the idea became reality. This is what lead me to think (while reading the story) that the Abyss is maintained & shaped by belief / will / desire more than by imports excepting living beings of course.

[Madfox11]

Having read many types of fantasy, the idea that the Abyss follows the same physical laws as Earth or is even a real physical place (even when to the observers it appears to be) is just not the first thing I think of. In fact, the shaping by belief / will / desire by the rules of the Abyss is actually more or less my defacto assumption of these places. The fact that the look of the Courts actually changes regularly according to the book only confirmed that idea in my mind. Loosing focus hardly matters since only the most powerful can do it and once established it remains the same until it is actively changed (and the changer usually has to overcome the power of the first shaper). Since most such influence is done subconsciously and fought by the believes of thousends of lesser beings a place usually doesn’t change into D&D Limbo are Elemental Chaos (aka a place were everything changes constantly).

[Iume]

Thanks MadFoxII, that is much more succinct than what I had said. Yes, I too feel that the Abyss works the same way.

[Tizzy]

Ahh, yes, you all caught the slip up in the demon Rosver’s argument! As a demon, I am an expert and looking for slip ups in arguments, as is, naturally: Rosver (hint hint as to Rosver’s species)

[quote]the author is blatantly ignoring physics.[/quote]

He hadn’t better be ignoring the laws of physics, that’s my job! Where’s my union rep!

However very precisely, as Iume, Madfoxiii have pointed out, if he’s violating the laws of physics, which laws of physics is he violating?

Having traveled the Planes of Men, I can attest that the laws of physics vary greatly between them. The Outer Planes are far worse.

The Outer Planes are pretty much exclusively whatever their owner(s) wants it to be. Or so I am told.
The Planes of Men are all pretty fixed and have their own laws, their laws vary in some sort of logical order, based on where they are relative to each other. I don’t know the mapping.

What I do know is that the REASON that Astlanian’s can’t get directly to Earth and why they see Earthlings as demons is because the laws of physics are too different.

That is actually what the back of the book implies and what I and Boggy explain to Tom.

So between Astlan and Earth, the laws of physics are sufficiently different that magic works, technology, not so much/it’s unreliable (gunpowder is very dangerous) much like magic is on Earth.

As to the Abyss. It is just weird. It is not in the Planes of Men as we know it, it is not one of the Outer Planes as we know them, or if it is, we don’t know who “owns it” and thus who is “Paying the mana cost to maintain it”
That’s pretty much the key with the Outer Planes, to keep them stable, a tremendous amount of Animus and Mana is required (which is why few gods have their own dedicated plane–pantheons share).

The Abyss also has relatively easy access to various Planes of Men that Astlan does not. In particular, the Abyss doesn’t seem to care about the physics of various Planes of Men.

Nor, for that matter do most of the Outer Planes–I assume, since Gods get to planes with different physics somehow.

Stuff that I know the origins of, and where it comes from is “borrowed” from other planes and rigged by the owner to work in the Abyss, somehow.
All I have is my pipe, and my funky furniture, which even Rosver must admit, doesn’t take a lot of effort to work in the Abyss.

I can’t account for everything in the Abyss, so maybe some of it is shaped energy. Particularly if it’s owned by a Demon Prince…

I should also note, back to atmospheric pressure. The examples I use are for Earth and Astlan (where air pressure does vary by altitude). Not clear this is true in the Abyss.
Again, not clear that the Abyss is a planet, if it is, it’s gotta be about the size of Jupiter or larger….talk about physics and gravity issues!

I will note however, altitude based air pressure is discussed/important in Books 2 and onward as you will all eventually learn.
Actually, for that matter, so is everything in this current discussions (at least thematically–not detail wise–but the questions discussed)

[NocandlE]

Greetings.
I would like to be considered for the beta reader list.

Thank you.

[Tizzy]

[color=red]Technically, all requests should be signed in blood, or on the internet in red ink. But I’ll take this request anyway.[/color]o:)

[Madfox11]

[quote=Rosver;1532]@Madfox:

The Court changes then confirmed that? Don’t you know that cities constantantly changes? Don’t think that New York City looks the same now as it was hundred years ago? Do City of London in 19th century the same City of London now? Or do you think that every city would remain the same and idenitical through the ages for eternity?

Things constantly changes. It is not surprising that The Court changes… because it should. It is the way things work. I would have been more astounded if The Court of Chaos has remain the same since its founding than finding it changing.[/quote]

Yeez, of course I know cities change. Nothing stays the same forever. Although, you might want to visit some of those quint medieval towns in Europe, on the outside they haven’t actually changed that much (except for being cleaner) 😉 A regular visitor though would hardly notice the changes since they tend to be relatively slow and it was a regular visitor who noted how the Courts of Chaos looked this time around.

Anyway, I personally don’t care all that much about these kind of details in a Fantasy world ingrained in magic where our laws of physics clearly do not apply and even less when they have no impact on the story. As I said in an earlier post, trying to explain things often makes it worse by reminding the reader the situation is odd, by adding more questions than you actually answer, by adding something even more unbelievable and by confusing the reader needlessly with details that have nothing to do with the story. No point in going in circles with you about it even though I am the first to say I like the occassional endless discusions about such things 😉

As for logic, we are debating about something that is illogical at its core and has no base on our own reality. Besides, even in our own real world things have been found to be true that would be considered weird and illogical before and it takes dozens of people and years of work to provide the asnwers you seek. Each and every reader/viewer has their own level at which point their suspension of disbelief gets jarred. Mine lies obviously different from yours 😉

[Korwin]

[color=red]Signature in [s]Red[/s] Blood[/color]

[Iume]

Okay, there is a bit about lampshading down below, but first…

Let us start from the assumption that the story’s world is in fact possible within its own laws. From that we see that[b]it doesn’t matter that someone [u]say[/u] is impossible.[/b] We will need to accept the book as empirical evidence which shows that wine, wood, plastics, metals, et cetera work / survive in the Abyss. Yes Earth physics & yes Astlan physics would give a big ol’ NOPE to the Abyss, but it works.

Therefore we must consider the means by which something that life outside of the Abyss says is impossible is possible.

Second, it is fantasy. It doesn’t have to conform to our reality. The rules of the story appear to be consistent in their reality, so hey it works. Then, if we accept the realm works & the rules are consistent then [b]what are the rules that can combine physics + magic?[/b]

Now, this next part is a bit of ramble and not 100% reviewed, so feel free skip down to the section listing rules #1, #2, #3 where I state the rules that I believe govern this book. This next section is bit long to nitpick so if you want to say no then please address in the context of the rules (#1, #2, #3) directly and the [b]evidence from the book that disproves the rules[/b].

***
Wall of text!
[spoiler]
So what are the rules? Why does gravity exist in the Abyss? What if reality works they way it does just because they know that what goes up must come down? Observation of humans in our reality has shown that it is not easy to change your beliefs in the “fundamentals” of reality as observed . So perhaps what they know to be true when they were mortal carries over.

But what if it is all superficial? Perhaps gravity in the Abyss isn’t because of the attraction between 2 bodies of mass but because “things fall” is the prevailing belief? If so, then extend this to the materials. If enough demons don’t know or care or are even thinking about how materials would be affected… then they aren’t. Some of the ways animus is described in the book suggest this is a possibility.

However, you are right that such a mechanism would be chaotic and we can see that while there is chaos it it not that chaotic. This suggests that there could be chaos and something enable the changes. So my use of the word magic is wrong (Sorry. See below for more details.)

Now, this is not a simple case of what-if. We have a variety of examples (not all listed) that suggest thought = fact or belief = reality is a possibility. Consider demonic flight.

What I was / am thinking of is whatever it is that allows demons to fly by simply thinking of the direction they want to move. Whatever that it is, which I suspect is animus, why can’t it be something that controls how the Abyss works? Why does it have to be limited to an individual & result in chaos? What if it doesn’t? Maybe the Abyss isn’t that malleable, but if enough demons believe that something is true then perhaps the abyss is changed to allow it to be true and stays in that state until enough demons belief otherwise. Or maybe it is true because 1 all-powerful demon (Concordenax) made it true. Not enough evidence to demonstrate the [b]mechanism[/b], but there is evidence that the reality of the Abyss is malleable.

The author’s word choice in describing the courts suggests a certain malleability.
[i]”The courts hadn’t changed much since the last time Antefalken was there. Which, given that he was last there two weeks ago, was actually saying quite a bit. The Courts of Chaos tended to change with the moods and temperaments of the people dwelling there. Currently it was in the ever popular urban-punk mode. The Courts, which essentially comprised a small city, looked like the standard post-atomic, no nuclear war, societal collapse city. Antefalken believed the current in vogue phrase was cyberpunk, but since he didn’t know for sure what a cyber was, he wasn’t sure if that was the accurate term.”[/i]

Also, perhaps there are degrees of malleability. Maybe the Courts of Chaos are called that simply because they are [b]very[/b] malleable while the outer areas were Tom lives are less malleable. Maybe the concentration of animus / magic of the that many demons living nearby weakens reality.

Why do I suspect animus as the mechanism even though I don’t know how the Abyss is not too chaotic?
With regards to animus vs. mana (magic?)
– Animus: Energy of life. Separates organic compounds from living organisms. Created by living things.
– Mana: Fundamental energy of the universe. Created by the interaction of 2+ Elements. Considered a fundamental property intrinsic to the elements. Mana holds the elements together.
– Elements: A representation of the universe.

Mana’s description sounds a lot atomic bonds, so yeah. Magic (the manipulation of mana) is the direct manipulation of atomic bonds to change reality. So let us set aside mana / magic as a means that would work and turn to animus. Demons (and gods) are mostly animus with an ability to form material shells that contain animus. Most of a what a demon does is probably animus derived and that may include how the Abyss functions. Animus’s usage in the books appears to be matter of willpower.

Now consider heat. Tom can actively believe that his fire form’s heat will not affect the wood the ship he is standing on but if he doesn’t think about it, it does char the wood. We later learn that his fire manipulation is animus manipulation which would suggest that he directly prevented the transfer of energy between atoms.
[i]”Rupert who was standing near the wheel and the captain, who was on his knees at this point, heard Maelen and realized the problem. Quickly Rupert dashed up to Edwyrd, nearly touching the flames themselves. Maelen decided then and there that that child had no common sense of danger what so ever. Given the heat, that even Maelen could feel it from midship, radiating from Edwyrd, it should have been unbearable for the child. Nonetheless he was shouting in Edwyrd’s ear.

Suddenly Edwyrd’s flame’s flickered as he realized what Rupert was saying and tried to compensate . His flames flickered and for an instant seemed about to go out. Within less than a second they reappeared in full strength as Rupert backed away to stand safely behind Edwyrd . The deck, while slightly blackened, no longer seemed to be charring. Edwyrd’s flames reached back in full force against the wizard.”[/i]

So maybe animus manipulation can make wood, plastic, alcohol, et cetera work in the Abyss by willpower or by the equivalent to willpower saying “Do not be affected”. We have case of animus manipulation preventing energy from transferring, but also of moving atoms through space without velocity & acceleration being applied by other atoms. The motive force was 100% willpower.

However, if a simple stray thought could simply change it would indeed be too chaotic and that was not observed. Indeed a certain mob-will seems to be in effect, so let us presume that a collective willpower or collective belief is needed to make it possible.
[/spoiler]

Therefore the author can adopt / use the following rules:
#1 – Sufficient concentrations or applications of animus can affect reality
#2 – The application of animus does not have to be consciously controlled
#3 – Contradictory applications of animus are resolved by the majority “concentration” which is expressed as animus per volume directed towards a certain goal.

Let us assumes this means the mechanism of resolving conflict is “If two set of animus partially overlap there intersection is dominated by the winner while animus outside the intersection is not.”

Applying these rules makes it possible for stolen items to be viable in the Abyss. This is what I trying to aim for when I said “fluid reality” or whatever the correct term is.

***

Side arguments that don’t affect the main

Lampshading
[spoiler]
Rosver:
Well, the demons actually stole those things probably even those buildings. Therein lies the problem. the author seems to asume that you can take anything from Astlan or other world and expect it to work or stay fine in the Abyss. As I say the author blatantly ignore physics.

Lampshading it doesn’t resolve the it, but then… oh well.

Iume:
Yep! As long as the world is internally consistent I’ll accept it. It doesn’t have to be explained. I know that lampshading doesn’t explain it, but if we have Tom notice the fact, notice that it doesn’t matter, and then move on I’ll be fine and consider the issue resolved because it works within the framework of the story. Of course, he could also look deeper and learn to abuse his knowledge, but there are demons from higher-tech worlds which could have done the same, but it seems didn’t so… who knows?

Rosver:
You are contradicting yourself. You say you’ll accept it as long as the world is internally consisitent; but you agree in lampshading.
[…]

[b]NEW[/b] Iume:
Incorrect. Please, I feel that you misunderstood what I said. I said that I’ll accept an internally consistent world. This is true. I said lampshading doesn’t have to explain it. True. I said I’d be fine and the issue resolved if the author puts in a lampshade moment. Again, true. These are not contradictory statements.

It would be contradictory for me to say that an author has to lampshade before I’ll accept an internally consistent world. If it came off as that, my bad.

Perhaps the confusion is on “I said I’d be fine”? I was referring to my acceptance of the author’s resolution of potential disbelief in other readers.

***

Rosver:
If the author lampshade something then it is accepted that the world is inconsistent and implausible. Since you only accept if the world is consistent, then a work that lampshades should not be acceptable to you.

[b]NEW[/b] Iume:
Your application of the definition is just one aspect. You say that to lampshade is to mention & then ignore inconsistencies. This is true, but lampshading is more than that. The page you linked to says that it is “dealing with any element of the story that [b]threatens[/b] (emphasis mine) the audience’s Willing Suspension of Disbelief”. I would say that this can cover, [u]but is not limited to[/u], inconsistencies. A willing suspension of disbelief can also A) cover any situation that results in the audience not accepting the reality of the story as presented or B) not accepting that characters in the fictional universe act on their own accord.

Yes to lampshade is mostly associated with bad writing which I would agree TAG is guilty of in this case as your problem arose, but it doesn’t mean his world’s design is impossible but rather that he is bad at managing our belief in his story.

The threat is our suspension of disbelief is that our worldview when imposed on the Astlan / Abyss worldview is in conflict. Or, as an author(can’t remember who) once said (and I’m paraphrasing ’cause I can’t remember the whole bit), “Fantasy only needs enough verisimilitude to trick the reader into believing the impossible.” TAG has failed by not providing about detail to make readers believe, but it is still a real, fantasy world even if it doesn’t work down at the fundamental level of physics. I mean, you can argue that most fantasy works are wrong according to physics.

… I’m not sure how well I explained that.

[/spoiler]—

Pointless nitpicks – Fluid Reality
[spoiler]
What the…

Iume:
So many reasons exist as to why it is possible such as magic, different laws of physics, different construction techniques, psychic ability, or fluid reality. It might not work on Earth, but clearly it works in the Abyss.

Rosver:
Fluid reality. Eh? Do you know what that means? You taken too much liberty with it. Its like X-men where genes enable mutants to control the weather or control magnetism.

Iume:
If there is a formal definition then nope! I was using the term “fluid reality” to describe a situation where what we perceive to be true can be changed. I was deliberately implying god-like powers, super-psychics, and non-material realities.

Rosver:
Huh? Are you arguing behind the veil of ambiguity? It isn’t wrong because it has no defined meaning? It has no formal definition so it is correct? What kind of argument is that?

[b]NEW[/b] Iume:
I am not saying that it isn’t wrong because it has no defined meaning. I said that I don’t know what it means if there is a formal definition. In the absence of a formal definition I say that fluid reality is one in which the “truth” or the rules of reality as perceived by us can be changed. Since the courts are malleable (see above) then it suggests what we consider “true” may not be and may not always be. It has nothing to do with a lack of a formal definition for fluid reality automatically making my arguments true.
[/spoiler]

Edit: Since I haven’t signed up yet… here is a pint of Rosver blood. Can I use it sign myself up for the beta? :-“

[Tizzy]

OOOOHHHH!!!

I love those spoiler buttons, I didn’t know you could do that!

That’s impossible! You are breaking the laws of forum!

=d>

Great long post. I have to come back to it and read it in detail, those buttons mean it is a LOT longer than I thought.

I will get back to this tonight when I can read it in detail. Can’t wait!

Tizzy!

[Iume]

Point #1
[spoiler]
Antefalken’s observation that being unchanged for 2 weeks is uncommon and that things changed faster means that [b]a lot[/b] of demons & their magic is needed or that demons are a lot more powerful than we’ve read thus far. But I thought we also ruled out magic (mana) as it is limited to too few demons. The sheer scale of things and the frequency of changes along with the not-so-cooperative nature of demons would make coordinating the work of constant renovation hard or there a lot more demons than I thought. Without millions of demons to move stone, lay pipes, manufacture / steal goods makes it a bit hard to swallow that they simply destroying & rebuilding that quickly. Also it is said that the “city” changes as the court’s mood & temperament change. I suppose it could be a case where it isn’t literal, but it felt like such since the frequency & scale made it so unlikely that it was manually (materially?) done.

Now, to get to point #1, which is willpower = change. [b]I did miss the part about animus <> willpower[/b] and that know-how of how affect a change though mana is needed so dangit! But… Tom is able to wield animus / mana without the know-how. [b]How is Tom able to fly / hover in Chapter 4 without knowing how to shape mana such that it negates gravity or provides lift?[/b] I would put forth that complex applications may not be possible, but simple ones or those within the realm of subconscious belief / understanding may be possible even if the demon doesn’t know how to “correctly” manipulate mana through animus (lets just call it animus manipulation).

Also, consider the scene of the Living Flame. What I read is that when Tom became the Living Flame it charred the wood, but when Rupert told him he stopped, and then resumed the Living Flame sans charring. How did Tom contain his flame while maintaining his heat? [b]What was the insulation?[/b] Tom had not begun mana manipulating other than maintaining shape, so it sounds a lot like willpower = result even if the intermediate steps of shaping mana were not explicitly stated or attempted. That suggests that direct know-how is not needed and that something can stand it. That something may be instinct or it may be imagination that is sufficiently close to how reality works that “reality accepts it”. Not a literal acceptance unless reality has a mind (and nothing suggest it does), but perhaps an application of will that not too divergent from the reality’s rules sort of snaps into place. It may even have a higher mana cost if the will is more divergent or lacking in understanding. I would imagine it as a demon’s brute force change backed by their immense animus.

Let’s get back to the part between Ch64 & Ch65 we learn more about animus: [i]”Using their power in a building -block manner, animages can achieve almost any effect imaginable. The cost and difficulty, however, is often higher than that for wizards or clerics to do the same thing.”[/i] Yes, what Tom lacks are the building blocks for greater effects, but what if the other demons already have them? What if these demons that shape the courts do a set & forget with mana using their animus as directed by willpower? These effects could include not only the reshaping of reality but also the preservation of imported goods. A drop from each demon can be a mighty will when combined.
[/spoiler]

So, we have the original #1 thrown out. It is is not true, but we can replace it with: “Although the application of willpower cannot use animus to perform wishes, it can achieve the effects of such through the application of knowledge and enough animus.” It is roughly the same as the original version of #1 in that animus effects a changes, but we must accept that the mechanism is different and hurdles greater.

Point #2
I disagree that #2 needs to be tossed.

[spoiler]
In the case of Tom’s flight & the living flame we see suggestions simpler imaginings (not simpler physics) may be possible without knowing how to manipulate the mana. It does require constant attention and means wishes aren’t possible. But! Now most demons can’t shapeshift, but Tom’s human form is just a shell. He gets tired and muscles hurt, but he doesn’t get hungry. This means he has doesn’t have a human body, but a human-looking body. He doesn’t know how a demon’s body works other than it is an energy form held to a shape; he know that demons “create” flesh using their animus; he learns that demons don’t have to consciously maintain a shape once they know how. Their base form is already in their know-how and with sufficient familiarity & animus they auto-maintain it. How is that shapeshift done? I would say, “Animus.” Now, I am not applying this to the goods as they can’t contain animus, rather I’m just putting it forth than demons can unconsciously maintain control. It requires conscious control to initiate, but can be maintained without thinking about it.

This would seem to modify the quote’s understanding of constant mental effort. It requires mental effort to achieve, but not maintain.

Now give a demon more time and they could do the same with a protection spell. The limit is on knowing how to protect it. I think that is what happened with the living flame. Tom did not will the charring to stop. He willed the heat to not transfer by holding it close. Maybe when demons first started importing goods they had the very problems you described, but learned how to wield animus to prevent the damage and with practice automatically did it to every non-living thing they interact with. I say non-living because demons the folk who say “screw you” to other living things and expect them to figure it out themselves. :p Thus demons are not saying, “Do not be affected” but rather “Heat, do not transfer”.

They know the cause is heat and manipulate the mana to prevent heat from affected. Thus same effect, different mechanism.
[/spoiler]

With this I would say that #2 is still possible, but with the amendment that initiating requires conscious control but can be maintained without.

Point #3
If we take the revised point #1 & point #2 then I would #3 is still possible. The mechanisms have changed and limits introduced, but it still supports the demons being able to reshape reality with enough effort. All we added was the need for know-how.

Because animus is controlled by willpower (generated by just living things) used to control mana rather than ritual (wizards) doesn’t mean it can’t affect non-living things. It means animus can’t be contained within or generated by non-living, but it can be affected through a manipulation of the elements via mana. This is nothing to do with object links. I’m just a low-grade, constant effect stemming from an set & forget that keeps items in shape.

[b]Lampshading[/b]
Hm. You are right. But I’ve also heard / seen it used as I described. The term has existed prior to TVTropes and I don’t know how complete or accurate they are though it looks sound. Maybe this is just a case of an evolving definition? Either way, I consider it settled. Wrong term was used.

I do however think that the author needs to address it, but not through a revision of the rules as you would suggest Rosver. Just imagine Book 2. Tom tries to bring stuff over and it fails because, hey: Abyss! So he tries to figure out why the courts don’t have this problem. Not sure how the author will address it, but yeah it needs to be addressed.

[b]Fluid Reality[/b]
Yeah, totally different definition from mine. Nothing to do with observation of reality collapsing possibilities into a single reality.

In my case, imagine a bowl of water with tiny creatures living inside. To them the water is all of existence and nothing, not even the bowl holding the water, exists for them. The bowl is very bad analogy for physics. It defines that shape of water is the shape of the bowl. To the people living in the water their realm is govern by this shape and allow rules they come up with must conform to this fact. But we as outside observers can take this water and pour it into another container, but of a different shape. Suddenly the rules of the water people don’t work. They must describe this new reality. Some rules are still the same such as how water works, but others are different such as how shape is defined. Now scale this down so only parts of the water can be manipulated to change shape. If the shape is reality then this is “fluid” reality. If there is another term to describe this I’d like to know.

“Magic” is an ability to change the shape of the water on a very localized scale. Demons with their huge reservoirs of animus can make bigger changes and affect large areas. The Abyss is more like an open body of water: easily shaped from within and Astlan is more like a frozen block of ice: not so easily shaped from within.

Shit… I’m not explaining this very well am I? Either way, can we consider Lampshading & Fluid Reality concluded?

[Rosver]

First I think it should be mana, not animus that influences reality. It was explained in the book.

Why things changes so fast in the Abyss can be explained by simple saying that the changes is aesthetic/appearance only. It is not reconstruction but redecoration. The Court actually seems to be in constant disrepair, which should not be if it is constantly reconstructed. The buildings are still there (find Trump Tower) but the appearance/aesthetic constanly changes to their whim. And there is also such things as vandalism that demons seems to enjoy to do.

As to how Tom flies, it is explained in that chpater and that it is because he has wings:

[quote]…He lost al­ti­tude. Quickly he tried flap­ping his wings to bring himself back up to Boggy. This didn’t work, in fact he began to fall even more. Un­less he could get the proper rhythm, his wings wouldn’t sup­port his mas­sive bulk. …[/quote]

I know the physics means it shouldn’t work. You could just add it to the list of how law of physics is broken.

As for how Tom contain heat, Magic. Tom is a natural Pyromaster. In Animages and Animagic account of the boook, it says.

[quote]Py­ro­mas­tery is the study of the el­e­ment of Fire in its as­pects of fire, light, and heat.[/quote]

In effect, Tom uses his pyromastery skills to control the flow of heat. He just lapsed at times and didn’t contain his flame/heat causing the wood to char.

Also, his shapeshifting is not mana manipulation.

And you also essentially say that they used magic (mana manipulation) to maintain things. This is very similar to Tizzy saying that they used airconditioning. And I said before, magic has issues since very few demons could do magic. It is also not set and forget thing. There are varous indications in the book that a spell casted gradually erode (Jenn binding Exador’s scout, Lenamare’s sheild dome) though there seems to be way that these can be made more permanent (Jenn breaking stone to make her binding last long, the lock spell on the book).

Even if that is possible, there is still a hiccup. When Antefalken was investigating Tom’s cave has this:

“By this point, An­te­falken had reached the main area of the cave. The fur­nish­ings weren’t much, mostly hand carved, lit­er­ally. Styl­is­ti­cally he’d seen bet­ter, but O.K. for a first try. The chair and table were func­tional, the book­shelves too, al­though empty. No real sign of any Ast­lan­ian ma­te­ri­als; ei­ther this Tom wasn’t able to do phys­i­cal trans­port or hadn’t fig­ured out how yet. Not sur­pris­ing, not many demons could. The ma­jor­ity of fours could man­age some­thing though, maybe not much, but at least small things.”

Tom’s cave is outside the Court so preserving magic would not be there, but Antefalken expect Tom to just bring things in, and he adivices such things as silk. Using magic to change reality in the Court of Chaos would not compensate for this as Tom’s cave in not in the Court of Chaos.

At that, point #1 still does not stand.

The living flame isn’t really about manipulating mana. According to Maelen:

[quote]”True union, the Liv­ing Flame was the ul­ti­mate join­ing of Anima and the El­e­ment of Fire.”[/quote]

“he learns that demons don’t have to consciously maintain a shape once they know how.” – not true, they had to conciously maintain their shape even if they know how. This was a difficulty Tom have because simple distraction would make him turn back to demon form. Rupert also has this, he once relaxed in Tom’s presence and started to loose his human shape, in chapter 31:

[quote]…He reached up to scratch his head which had been itch­ing him all morn­ing, and felt a slight swelling above his tem­ple. He was slightly sur­prised, ap­par­ently he’d re­laxed more last night than he’d thought. …[/quote]

Clearly, they can’t auto-maintain it as you say.

There are indicated ways that spell would remain more permanent after the spell is cast. One is when Jenn bind Exador’s scout. She breaks a rock to make it last longer. Another and more effective one is the unknown lock spell used in the contested book. It has lasted for centuries which indicates that a powerful wizzard uses a rather powerful technique.

The only problem I could see is that, there are very few demons who could do magic. Exador is one of them and I don’t think that he is one that would cast the preserving spell on clothes so that those class two demons could have their dress ups or for Tizzy and others to havetheirs wine. Just think tedious would that be.

So, though the revised point #2 is possible, it is not viable.

Point 3 is still in jeopardy mostly because of viability.

———

Lampshading

The application you sought out is in this part of the quote:

[quote]…or a particularly blatant use of a trope,…[/quote]

Tropes like Mary Sues (an annoyingly perfect character), McGuffin (a element to move the plot forward but otherwise has no other purpose) and Made of Explodium (everything just seems to explode).

———-
Fluid reality

Nah! I don’t want my head to ache.

Yeah lets conclude it.

[Iume]

Point #1
Hm. I get what you are saying about the Abyss, and I do not have any concrete evidence that says wild surges rather than changes in aesthetic/appearance the case. There simply isn’t much detail. It is just that when I read Chapter 38 I get the impression that the look is more like a skin / theme that is quickly & easily switched. It may take Talarius & Book 2 to get more detail. I believed what the author describes was not merely illusion, but a physical manifestation. Like a coffee shop can become a saloon. Same location, same owner, same products for sale but the shape of the building is very different. Different “materials”, different decor, different construction, but still recognizable as being that same building. This is something that goes beyond just redecoration.

Just… not enough evidence.

Point #2
Have to concede.

Oddly the courts are populated by a lot of 2s & 3s and they can use what is there. But I still feel that all demons manipulate mana to a degree, but perhaps without fine control or control over complex stuff. Like a consumer using a product without knowing how it is made or work. Input -> Black Box -> Output. 4s & up could establish something in the fabric of the Abyss’s reality (no evidence, just speculating in case evidence to support pops up) that allows it or something that is part of the current settings.

[Author]

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