Time Frame on next book

[Tizzy]

Well…you do realize that not all wizards and students know the same things, education and knowledge is not as democratized in Astlan as on Earth.

Lenamare is very good. There are other wizards that understand his work and can follow it, and presumably his work is based on the works of others. But not all of this is going to be commonly available. You will see this more in book 2 as we get to see the inner workshops of other wizards. Some of these guys and their allies have very unique magicology or whatever you want to call it.

Also Exador is a good wizard, a very experienced one, but I think it’s pretty clear that Lenamare is a much better wizard than Exador. Lenamare is a human and he’s able to go toe to toe with an archdemon wizard who is at least 2 thousand years old. Exador supplements his wizardry with being an archdemon…i.e. he’s cheating.

To outsiders, they look like equals, but in reality, Lenamare is much more skilled/faster learner than Exador. Exador has been honing his game for millenia, Lenamare for what? 3 decades? (He is 37 at the time of the book–according to the Timeline). In fact, if I were to guess, I’d say that one reason Exador hates Lenamare is because Lenamare can go toe to toe with him and win, despite all of Exador’s advantages.

Now, that being said, it is common perception that Alexandros Mien (in his prime) was a better wizard than Lenamare is today. Whether this is true or not, I can’t say, but Alexandros Mien is considered to be the Greatest Known Living Wizard (and this is really within the known realm of the Council—can’t say about Natoor etc)

So…the question might be, which students is the narrator talking to?

Again on the heat.

Actually, electrical devices can work at relatively high temperatures, look inside a modern engine. Electronic devices are a different story but…electrical?

[Rosver]

Not all know the same things, but that does not mean some don’t know the same thing. Even if knowledge is not that democratic, that doesn not mean that those with the means can’t get the knowledge. The C.O.D. is rather powerful spell and is known to permanently kill demons. Why won’t powerful wizards not expend some gold to acquire such knowledge? Not only that, many people are shown to know C.O.D.. Rupert know about it, that poor wizard who cast it certainly know about it. Jehanna know about it. The magic world might not be democratic, but C.O.D. is quite popular and well known enough.

Things you told about Lenamare and magic practices might be true, however iff the knowlege of C.O.D. is readily taught to the students, then the knowledge should have been long acquired by the masters. C.O.D. seems to be one of the spells that isn’t keep secret.

Well, Exador has the necessary knowledge. He might be a cheater but he did control the C.O.D., which means he did have the knowledge. It is quite surprising that he doesn’t use his knowledge to more destructive ways or invented the bomb. He is a demon… a violent one. He is also one of the most likely to be able to figure out Lenamare’s bomb for he already has the knowledge of its mechanics.

There is also the fact that Lenamare doesn’t make a secret of the bomb. He even told Jenn how it works.

Its also not about the student but the implication. If a student can acquire the knowledge and is being given the knowledge by the teachers, then many shoud have known.

As for the heat. [-x

Yes some electrical devices can stand heat especially ones that are designed to… like your example. However many electronic devices aren’t. Household switches, electric outlets, lamps, surge protectors, etc. are not meant to operate in high temperatures. The materias they are made of will likely deteriorate. Most are made of plastic so would have melted.

Also elevators and cars contain electronic components.

Also many materials can’t stand high temperatures. And many scenes contain objects that should have not survived.

Wood would dry up, warp and crack but Ramses is playing a piano and probably the doors described in the Abyss are made of wood.

Many fabrics would degrade in prolonged exposure to heat. Silk especially is particularly sensitive. Yet Antefalken decorate his den with “silks and other soft cloths.” He is also seen flying wearing leather. Of course there are those demons that play dress up.

Jewelry, which Antefalken also decorated his den with, is also a concern . Many jewels are heat resistant but many like pearls, opals, coral, and amber would get damaged. Enamels could get ruined.

Many adhesives isn’t designed for extreme heat like wood glue and epoxy. As many modern devices depends on such adhesives, they will ultimately fail.

There is no mention of paints, but there probably be, well at least, car paint, and most paint don’t get along with heat very well. Lacquers, varnish, shellacs and other various finishes doesn’t take well to heat too.

There is also rubber tires. It would have melted long ago.

Another thing that should have been damaged by the heat are alcoholic drinks. There is a scene where Antefalken is wander in the Abyss carrying a bottle of wine, not to mention, it must have been stored in the Abyss somewhere for sometime. It would have been cooked or sour. There is also a scene where Boggy consume a truly prodigious amount of alcohol. Exposed to heat, alcohol in the beverages tend to evaporate, many also spoil. Whatever the beverage was, it would have been spoiled for being stored in the Abyss for so long.

Then there is the corrosive sulfurous air. The silver trimings should have tarnished long ago. Iron and steel would not last long either.

Well, many buidings aren’t standing and many objects aren’t in good condition but many would not have functioned there in the first place.

Really this error can’t be justified.

[Tizzy]

So…not all of them are errors.

Boggy did have a bottle of what looked like wine to Tom. But don’t assume it was human wine made out of grapes. It was a glass wine bottle with a liquid in it.

The main thing he got drunk on was the Denubian Choco-Coffee(TM) and that is served at roughly the boiling point of water.

As for Ramses estate…it’s very much air conditioned and climate controlled. The ArchDemons really have no problem with this. Cold Fire is well known. It’s basically Anti-Fire, an absence of heat. For high powered demons (including Tom) who can control fire, they can also control anti-fire, that which we call Cold Fire.

{In fact, as they observe in “The Almight Johnson’s” (syfy/netflix/New Zealand show about Norse gods) at one point–“Cold burns, very much like fire.”}

As I’ve said before, the ambient temperature in the Courts is about half what it is elsewhere, and if you go inside, it’s even cooler in most places.

Here’s the thing, humans know that to preserve things, like food, old documents, you have to have some climate control, it seems to me that a demon who lives for thousands of years, would also figure this out after a few attempts and thus compensate.

What I think is happening is you are seeing half empty glasses rather than half full glasses.

If you see stuff, like the piano, you should assume that this is a sign of the owner’s power and wealth. They can afford to have and maintain something that shouldn’t exist where they are. Therefore, if it exists, and it shouldn’t, there must be something going on, say in the background that you aren’t aware of.

So case in point from book 2:

[quote]The plateau was about twenty feet in diameter, just sufficiently big that they could all land on it. Tizzy with Talarius, Rupert, Tom and Antefalken the bard. Tom looked over at the bard who was putting his harp away; he had had it out batting away arrows when they had been banished from the city.
“How do you keep the wood from drying out?” Tom suddenly asked. “I’d think this place would be literally ‘Hell’ on it.
The bard smiled mischievously. “It’s Denubian Wormwood. It’s quite at home in these environments. Takes a bit of Denubian worm slime now and then, but that’s it.”
“Same place as the Choco-Coffee?” Rupert asked.
Antefalken shook his head, “You forgot the TM. Denubian Choco-CoffeeTM.” Antefalken corrected. “The Denubians get very picky about their trademarks.”
“Sorry.” Rupert said.
[/quote]

So there you have an answer on wood. Perhaps the piano was made of the same wood, or similar…or as I said maybe he’s got really good cooling.

And if fact…it is my belief that this is the case. You will note (as i recall) there are plants and trees on his estate (recall the greek like demons wandering around gardening and doing things). Those don’t grow that well here either.

From what I understand, his estate/enclave is sort of a biosphere with better temperatures inside for his gardens and palace.

So in fact, one of the things that should be making an impression is, what Tom would be up against if he were to get on the wrong side of the ArchDemons.
These guys are basically mini-demigods, with large infrastructures and lots of power. Tom’s got a dumpy cave.

But the power of the ArchDemons is nothing to the power of the Demon Princes who have carved out the Courts of Chaos, and the power of the Demon Princes is nothing compared to the power of the Gods, who have carved out entire planes of existence.

So my argument would be, don’t assume that something that doesn’t make sense immediately (like a glass table) is a mistake or an anachronism.

yes, there are some oversights, that’s why T-A-G is going to do a beta reader program next time, but a number of these things that don’t seem logical are there on purpose. Some of these questionable things may be answered later, some may not, but the ones that are not–well they might be mistakes, but they might also be things left for the reader’s imagination. I.e. a puzzle, why/how would this ever work? What could be going on?

[Rosver]

What you are saying is inconsistent with the book.

[quote]”Scum!” shouted Boggy. “You took the wine!”[/quote]

It is clear that what they are drinking is wine.

[quote]An odd thought crossed his mind. If the ambient temperature of the Abyss was about the boiling point of water, then how was this coffee simply steaming? In his mouth it felt like coffee or hot chocolate, it was hot. So exactly how hot was this stuff?[/quote]

The Denubian Choco-Coffee(TM) is clearly hotter than the boiling point of water.

[quote]Boggy made his way over to Antefalken’s table, carefully guarding his choco-coffee against spillage. By his movements, Antefalken noted a severe hangover on Bogsworth’s part. For a demon, that indicated a truly prodigious amount of alcohol. The equivalent of a couple gallons of pure grain spirits at the least. Boggy sat down clumsily, across from Antefalken.[/quote]

He is drunk because of alcohol.

As for airconditioning and temperature control:

>There was not mention of that in the book so it is quite good to assume that its not there.

>Even if the temperature is half what it is elsewhere, that is still hot enough to damage wood.

>Well, if Ramses does use magic to control temperature that doesn’t explain how the other instances of use of wood is protected like the western style door in ‘The Ripe Young Maiden’s Surprise’ and other more heat susceptible materials like plastics and raber and Antefalken’s silk and soft farics.

>What happens when Ramses left the Abyss for sometime? Won’t the temperature cntrlling spell get despelled?

>also for knowing how to preserve things. Ramses might know, but would other demons know?

>also if those things impossible things are a sign of power and wealth then those “gutless sycophants, and court lackeys and hangers-on who had nothing better to do” and Antefalken who is just a bard whould not have been able to have those dress ups, wine and silk becuase they don’t have the power to be able to preserve them in the Abyss once they got them.

And that book two quote is cheating. It should have been in book one not book two. For Tom to ask it at that moment and not when he was confronting those western doors, and probably tables, chairs walls, ceilings and floors is ridiculous.

Also, when it comes to wood, it is not only temperature but also humidity. In a very dry atmosphere, the wood would also dry up, warp and crack. The piano has to be in proper temperature and humidity or it would not last long.

As for the plants, they are local flora hence should have adapted to the local. So those plants should not be that difficult to grow in the Abyss as they are indigenous there.

And note that there are no trees in Ramses’ garden as noted by Exador.

Your justification is that, these are show of power but the weakness is those demons of no power still have those conveniences, especially clothing and wood. These things should have not been wide spread if your justification is true and it also doesn’t make sense that those higher up demons would supply such magics to abbide the lesser demons vanity.

[quote]yes, there are some oversights, that’s why T-A-G is going to do a beta reader program next time, but a number of these things that don’t seem logical are there on purpose. Some of these questionable things may be answered later, some may not, but the ones that are not–well they might be mistakes, but they might also be things left for the reader’s imagination. I.e. a puzzle, why/how would this ever work? What could be going on?[/quote]

Tizzy! Did you just give me hand wave?

Well, don’t worry. The book is still mighty fine even with the flaws. So don’t sweat.

[Azpen]

Sorry for jumping in late to the world of Astlan, but I have some questions. How do you have an out of world experience? Do I have to constantly smoke pot? Or do I have to meditate?

Also @Rover if it does nott say the room is or is not air conditioned, then it is not safe to assume it’s not air conditioned. Just because something isn’t mentioned doesn’t mean its false or true. That’s up to the author to decide when the time comes. It is something like Schrödinger’s cat. You won’t know which it is until it is revealed.

[Tizzy]

Peyote for example and many other drugs/plants can induce out of body experiences as can TM (Transcendental Meditation).

Normally, pot probably wouldn’t send you out of body, unless maybe you seriously over do the edibles….Maureen Dowd comes to mind here…

Demon’s have been captured from Earth(s) for thousands of years and many different cultures. We’ve gotten a lot of guru’s and buddhist monks over the years.

TM is the most reliable way, but the hardest because it’s a mental discipline, not unlike that done by animages in Astlan.

—
Well, as for the clothing….you are seriously missing a huge piece of the puzzle on that one. (T-A-G is hiding it from you)

It’s fine for you to question it, in fact you should but it’s not an oversight. To give you a hint, Ramses at one points mentions “dressing the old fashioned way” or similar, after getting out of bed with Bess.

All the lesser demons are naked, most of the really powerful ones are not (at least some of the time) and they certainly go all over the abyss in whatever clothes they have on and don’t have any temperature problems.

The same for immediate possessions, and in some cases, non-immediate possessions. That’s a third case that I didn’t even bring up before.

But that discussion must be saved for later in Book 2, or maybe book 3 at the latest; once Tom figures it out for himself.

Tom didn’t need to mention in Book 1 because he never say the harp in book 1. Yes he knew Antefalken had a harp and other instruments, but hadn’t seen them out in the Abyss, so hadn’t thought of it. Seeing the harp then or there just caused a light bulb to go off. Sometimes people don’t catch/realize incongruities the first time they seem them and only afterwards go “oh!” This was like that.

Also FYI, there are wooden doors and benches in the bar in the Courts.

I should note that Denubian Choco-Coffee(TM) is the only thing that really makes demons drunk. Alcohol doesn’t have a lot of effect on them, unless they driink huge quantities. BloodWine is an exception, and it’s a type of wine but is not made from grapes.

You are right in your quote on Boggy/Antefalken. That was from a very early draft of T-A-G’s and was never updated to be consistent.
it should have read [quote] that indicated a truly prodigious amount of alcohol or a simply prodigious amount of Denubian Choco-Coffee(TM)[/quote]

However, these are Antefalken’s POV words, and he thinks of drunk in terms of alcohol as he’s a bard that hangs out with lots of humans and he himself was human (multiple times in fact–he’d been a demon bard for several centuries before he got incarnated via an Incubus as a reward from a Demon Prince and did the two body thing: one a human in Astlan, the other his demon form and did the Astral travel thing–but that’s another story)

I also agree with Azpen, don’t assume that because something isn’t mentioned, it’s not present. The stench was present even though no one mentioned it. The first time, if the POV was a new human, it should probably have been mentioned, but if the POV was Tom or a demon, others may have noticed but not said.

As I recall most POV was Gastrope’ or Jenn so it should have been mentioned by them when they first crossed over.

However, to head things off in advance: Talarius does not and will not mention it in book 2 because
1) he’s in an environmentally controlled suit of armour
2) he knows it is supposed to stink of sulfur etc, so it’s just living up to expectations
3) he doesn’t want to admit to any discomfort due to pride.

[Madfox11]

While I am usually not a fan of “because it is magic”, I must say that worrying about how something works in the Abys, feels a bit to me like overthinking stuff. Demons are litterally beings of magic, making certain apparently technological stuff work because of magic seems to be a perfect valid explanation. It is not as if the minor demons can even import stuff and they have had litterally centuries to think of sollutions. I certainly hope not to see too many detailed explanations on how such minor things work. I have seen people make it worse by adding either more contradictions (ME3: if assari do not use the DNA from their partners when mating, how do pure bloods generate those freaky things?) or make it even less believable for people who know how things work (ME3: the whole Quarian stuff around allergies which clashes with the weak immune system of ME1, let alone with using antibiotics to treat it).

As for using RW earth references, please, keep them. It is not as if we have much common ground with demons. Sure, the demons might not drink alcohol, but apparently there is an equivalent substance. If you keep sticking to the local references, you also keep explaining stuff, which only increases the chance of confusion. Not to mention that you are creating expactations, to give an example of another book I recently read, if you create your own military ranking system, but keep calling kings kings and ministers ministers, you are adding needless confusion to the reader. I certainly had trouble keeping the rank system straight, and it was not even important to the story (which had very little to do with the military). As for the wine, making it ‘drink’ would have been smarter, but give TAG a break, how many things are called ‘wine’ in the real world and the littery world which have no relation at all with the liquor made out of fermented grapes? o:)

[Rosver]

@Azpen

What I mean about the no mention thing is the lack of airconditioned features that should have been noticed, like say the great difference of temperature of the air outside and inside the room; if it was magical then there should be a pentagram for Exador to note, and it that big room, a form of air circulation system like fans, etc.. We are given a long discourse of Exador making careful observation while in that room but failed to note airconditioning elements which should be very noteworthy in the situation. So the assumption that it is not there is good.

I think that the author might not have considred such things when writing the story which result in him putting such delicate instruments like pianos in such environment.

Also of course that would not explain areas like ‘The Ripe Young Maiden’s Surprise’ where a western style swinging doorway would not have keep the cold air in.

[Tizzy]

Except that Exador would not note such things in Exador’s palace.

Air conditioning would be considered obvious to him in such a place with fine furnishings, and he’d been there before. I.e. he’s several thousand years old, and has a penthouse in the courts that he air conditions for his nice things. (well, I assume he does, I know he has nice things and that he has a penthouse in the courts…never been there though)

Thus he would not “note” a temperature drop, because he’d expect such a drop. Plus, if he’s in human form, not demon form (as he was/always is) the odder thing would be the high temperature for his human body (however–the bodies just look human, they are no less rugged than a demon form)

Tom would note the issues you mention, but he didn’t go inside…about the only nice place he’s been in the Abyss is the bar/cafe, and that place is about the same temperature as the streets.

Also, demons really/generally don’t notice temperature as much as humans, we can notice it, but our bodies have such a wide range of operating temps that it’s not that big a deal. What you call “Freezing” and “Scorching” we call “Cool” and “Warm” or “Stuffy” maybe.

[Rosver]

@Tizzy

First, it was Ramses’ Place.

If it was true that Exador had vissited it many times, then he should have not not assesed the design on the floor (he did to see if it was some sort of magical trap), or take much interest of the carvings.

Also, Exador doesn’t seem to stay that much in the Abyss. Not to mention he is in a potential enemy territory so he should have been more vigilant and take notice of such things.

[Madfox11]

Focussing on the little details much? 😉 Is it just me, or is this discussion rather funny. We have people changing into living flames, operating flying ships and riding flying horses and you wonder about such minor technicalities such as how something that looks like a piano operates in something that might or might not be excesively hot? For all we know, it might not even be an actual physical object since the Abyss clearly does not operate by the standard laws of physics we are familiar with 😉 Besides, Tizzy already answered that one. Experienced demons don’t experience temperature changes, but they will always be looking for potential traps by powerful rivals and the carvings might be new. Not to mention Tizzy is hardly all-knowing, and he is likely not a demon prince (although I am rooting for him to be that missing demonic overlord ;)). He might simply not know how things work 😉

[JMX]

[quote=Tizzy;1517]@Rosver

Yes, that was a typo. I meant Ramses place, but typed Exador’s palace.

so just read the thing again knowing I meant Ramses palace but mistyped.

Correct: Exador doesn’t spend much time in the Abyss, this comes up in Book 2, as does his Penthouse in the Courts.

His main domicile is in Astlan and has been for well over a thousand years…he may have other places for his miniions but this has never been mentioned. There is lots of talk of his human minions but not much about his demon ones, yet we know he has them, they were living in the Council Palace for a while, where they went “home to” is an interesting question. Presumably not his castle in Astlan as his humans would freak out.

@Madfoxii

I am also rooting for me to be the Overlord of the Abyss. I’m just not sure how I’m going to know if I am. I’m thinking if I start a rumor about it, maybe in a few thousand years it will become accepted knowledge and I’ll just be the defacto “secret” overlord of the abyss.

Maybe then I can get some demonesses to sleep with me.

[/quote]

I had a nice long reply written up but my iPad dumped it after changing tabs. 🙁

[Tizzy]

It’s not that demons can’t feel changes it’s just not as big a deal.

The situation at Ramses is more like, you are out in the hot sun and then you go into a mall and it’s air conditioned. You don’t really think of it other than “oh, that feel’s good” you just take it for granted.

Unless of course, you live in Florida, in which case you walk into a mall or supermarket and suddenly icicles are forming on your sweaty close because they’ve cranked the temperature down to about 35 degrees.

But everywhere else…you just sort of expect it.

So you are saying maybe I should go around asking other demons if I am the Demon Overlord? My question is, if they know I’m the demon overlord, why have they never told me before? I don’t like my subjects keeping secrets like this from me.

So, anyway back to temperatures…

Typically Abyss temperature is near (but not at) the boiling point of water, that is 212 F, 100 C. So about means around 190-200 F

I’ve said the Courts are routinely about half that so between 95-100 degrees. Which is a very reasonable temperature for Phoenix AZ during late spring through early Fall. It can easily be 115 during August. And the Abyss, which is ambient at 190, is far drier than Phoenix, and with heat (for people) humidity is huge.

So humans can certainly exist in the Courts, perhaps not comfortably (and air quality is not ideal), but they can. And escalators can work fine there too. They have plenty of outdoor escalators in Phoenix at 115.

Now pop in some runes of coldfire inside buildings and the temps can readily be around 70F very easily.

[Rosver]

Well, air conditioning is not everywhere in Abyss, I think, is it? Also, Exador doesn’t think much about such things but pay attention to the carvings? The furnitures? The floor? Even the size of the room?

As for temperatures.

This might be a game of semantics, but near the boiling point of water, means a bit lower or [b]higher[/b] than the boiling point of water, you only take the lower end when you say about 190-200 F.

You also not quite correct in comparing the circumstances of outdoor escalators to the circumstances of the Abyssal escalators. For one, most of the time outdoor elevators aren’t exposed to heat. Half of the day is night and the highest temperature happens only for a few hours in midday. Early morning and twilight isn’t really that hot. In the Abyss, the hight temperature is constant.

Second, the heat often comes from the sun which only affects the surface of the escalators, not to mention many have roofing or is mounted on the ground which often is cooler than the surrounding. Not so in the Abyss.

As for humans existing in such temperatures… they should have died of heat stroke.

Now, the cooling runes should work but who, and how do they maintain the magic? As you say, very few demons know magic. Only a handful really. And they being high and mighty, I don’t think, they would be going allover the city checking the runes without an exuberant amount of payment.

As I say, this issue is really not justifiable. The circumstances just don’t make for it. It doesn’t matter much really. Many stories has such stuff (like superhero stories), and is often just hand waved, and readers just does’t mind. Just be careful, it may become stupid and absurd, just like the movie where Superman turns back time.

[Tizzy]

OK,

So if you are going to get that technical on the “near the boiling point of water” what if I were to note that the boiling point of water various by altitude…

And altitude varies greatly in the Abyss, as you may have noticed. Actually it varies by atmospheric pressure, so what we really need to look at is, what is the atmospheric pressure of the Abyss at “Sea Level”?

Now, I haven’t seen too many seas laying around the Abyss, so let’s assume at Styx level.

The Courts are quite a bit higher than the Styx, Tom’s cave even higher, the mountains with snow are many leagues tall.

So anyway…the point being, I was bad in saying that the boiling point of water is 212. Only on Earth at sea level does water boil at that temperature.

For that matter, we don’t know the atmospheric pressure in Astlan as sea level. So…we really have no idea what the boiling point of water is in Astlan.

Obviously, alchemists and chemists know, and presumably wizards/animages etc know.

However, I don’t.

I am also not aware of anyone with a thermometer in the Abyss.

So, technically, for all we know, “near the boiling point of water” could be 160 degrees Fahrenheit, if the atmospheric pressure was like 30000 feet on earth. Although, if that were the case we’d probably have a lot more humans gasping for breath as well as having heatstroke.

On the other hand, maybe it’s 220 degrees?

But…whatever the temperature, and whether it’s logical or not…all I can report on is what I (and others) observe

Oh, and there is no sun in the Abyss, it’s mostly ambient, or the flaming balls, volcanoes, lava flows etc heating things up.

It also gets cooler at night in the Courts, just like it gets darker. Probably not super cool, but if you pay attention, it does get cooler.

Well, I think T-A-G has been pretty explicit about humans dying of heatstroke without cooling spells. Plenty of discussion about air conditioned dungeons used to store humans.

I don’t think the turning back time will help.

1) Never seen a demon fly that fast
2) If the demon goes up in space, how would it’s wings work? Assuming there is a vacuum up there–no idea…
3) I really have no proof that the Abyss is even round/spherical. As far as I can tell, it seems pretty flat…and we have no sun or moon to see crescents etc.
4) Nor do I have any indication that it’s rotating…

So, I think we are safe from turning back time…

Unless Cher is a demon….but technically, I think she said “If I could turn back time.” Implying that she can’t.

Although she does sort of dress like Lillith. Hmmmm…

[Author]

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