Time Frame on next book

I’d agree.

Some things are better left to the imagination. Not all puzzles must be solved immediately, and some never.

However, some things are mistakes or could be better explained/described, hence beta reading to catch inconsistencies.

Also keep in mind, characters with a POV will think of describe things in their words, even if they aren’t correct. So a green glass bottle that an obviously drunk person is wielding is interpreted as a wine bottle, by Tom, when instead it could be a ’60’s era bottle of 7 up…which as we all know works fine in the Abyss.

I myself like 7up because it comes in green bottles that complement my complexion.

Perrier is the same and in fact it looks more like a wine bottle than 7up.

Of course, in Astlan (not the Abyss) there really isn’t a single shape/color for a wine bottle. Wine casks, yes. But bottles are refillable objects of various shapes and sizes.

Ranking systems are a problem for another reason: Translations. The exact ranks may be different but depending on whose talking the closest word in a foreign language might translate literally to something of a different rank etc.

For example, I am torturing Talarius by calling him a Paladin. Because by Earth standards, most of you would think of him as being a Paladin. However, as he likes to point out, he is not a Paladin, but rather a Knight Rampant. It’s a function of rank, and by calling him a Paladin, I am demoting him verbally.

Whew, my brain went out just reading all that. Way beyond my pay grade to say much intelligent.

But I can make some observations:

have you looked at the pictures of me? if Tom’s flying is questionable under your traditional physics, mine is down right impossible.
I know more, but am not saying. Telling people what can and can’t be done in advance, often limits what they can and can not do.

As T-A-G and I have pointed out, a lot of the courts are facades and shared illusion. And what I mean by this is rather complex to detail here and now.
But both reality and illusion do change frequently. However, even so, it’s more like rotation. There are only so many archetypes for buildings and styles.
Each building or group of building has so many permutations. Demons cycle them in and out like a museum does art exhibits.

And things do just move around, your favorite bar might move to the other side of town over night and change it’s appearance. If you’ve been around long enough, you’ll have seen all the variations of each building, new variations aren’t popping up that often.

What really makes it change “a lot” is that all of the buildings tend to change or move randomly, with only somewhat irregular coordination. It’s the multitude of possible combinations that really makes the city chaotic seeming. No single building or group of buildings have that many appearances, but when a building changes and the one next to it on the right also changes, and the one on the left swaps out with something else altogether, the net result can be a lot of change.

[i][b][size=7][color=red]—————below gets into dangerous stuff that you haven’t yet discussed, but is needed to answer some of the questions you’ve raised so it’s getting into spoiler territory———————————————————————–[/color][/size][/b][/i]

Now, the one big thing you guys are missing here; and seriously I can’t believe you are missing this, because having read/dictated book II, it is something that’s bugging Tom.

Economics, trade, money.

Yes there is lots of tribalism, bullying etc. But really most of the smaller demons get that from wizards.

The demon princes have learned that fear and terror of their might only goes so far; and that a combination of carrots and sticks help.

So the fear/terror/torture is the stick, the carrots are rewards for service, good behavior. These rewards are “trinkets” from other worlds, magic items, spells, favors for service (the maybe someday coming Antefalken short stories–Tales of the Demon Bard–or something like that, will focus on this in a lot of detail).

So, smaller demons have all these things, they accumulate them over centuries of toil to the more powerful demons who can provide these things.

The button below really is a sort of spoiler; so don’t read it if you don’t want a mystery of book 1 (somewhat) 2 (definitely) answered now.

[SPOILER]One of the biggest things the council can’t figure out in book 2 is how the hell Exador is able to control so many demons? He doesn’t. He pays them! They work for him, and they expect to get compensated for their services. Yes, he’s a shitty horrible tyrant of a boss…but he is simply a very abusive employer—

And come on silly Fantasy Authors—Does anyone really expect an “Army of Darkness” to work for free? Sure, maybe the undead, but the goblins, trolls, orcs? They need to get paid, and something more than just looting and pillaging—

For how to do this right–>Glenn Cook knows how an Army of Evil should work.
[/SPOILER]

Anyway, you notice that there is also money in the Abyss. There is robust trade. Money is issued under the imprint of the Co-Factors (one side of the coins are Sammael, the other Lillith) The banking system is very crude, but the coins are basic barter units to value the ‘trinkets’ and ‘artifacts’ provided by the greater demons to their servants.

So–lampshading—forget your tropes. key rules that can be extract from what T-A-G has said on this forum.

1) Observations are made from different points of view.
A) Different points of view will explain things differently.
B) Maelen will explain what he sees based on what he knows.
C) Jenn/Gastrope’ will explain based on their knowledge
D) Tom will explain based on his knowledge or lack thereof.
E) I will just tell you the unvarnished truth, how it is, what’s real and what’s not.
2) For what Tom sees and notes.
A) He’s 16, yes a very bright/mature 16 year old but kids are often just observing something and shrugging
B) He’s a total book nerd, he’s read a lot of Fantasy and Science Fiction, so if he sees something that’s consistent with Fantasy or D&D, he just says “OK”
C) At many points he’s under duress/stress/ and maybe in a bit of shock, so he may not be fulling processing things, and when he does it’s probably in a more narcistict way, revolving around himself, rather than an objective scientist sort of way.
3) T-A-G has been very explicit that there is [color=darkblue][i][b]some weird shit going on[/b][/i][/color] and that he knows this, it’s intentional, and no he may not explain it all, at least not until book 36.

@lume:

[quote]I probably wasn’t clear on this. I meant, just because it was stolen doesn’t mean it wasn’t modified. Somehow.[/quote]

No they don’t. Antefalken gives a rather comprehensive explanation of how they do it. They just open a gate and took objects in. No more, no less.

[quote]They may not be able to so formal spells like a wizard or like a higher-ranked demon but they still managed to do things that defy our physics. It must be something, so why not magic? It is also suggested that the energy / animus that demons are is part of magic and they can manipulate it somewhat so perhaps demons are partly magic & have an instinctive rather than conscious control over it.[/quote]

In this world magic is manipulation of mana. Almost all of the demons can’t manipulate mana. Those who do is very few and are very powerful.

[quote]Oh, I know it was a hand wave, but we also know that fireballs ignite, explode, and contract in mid-air after coming out of nothing. Why can’t the “laws of physics” may be made up in this realm? Although they wouldn’t hold together if subjected to a logical analysis but they may also be held together by the demons’ will even if it isn’t a conscious effort.[/quote]

There is a flaw in this. There are many wills. If the physics is really made up then why do the physics there very homogeneous? Since physics depends on the will why don’t physics become different at the different part of the Abyss? Why don’t one will to turn off gravity. Will it so that it won’t stench. Or will that those buildings don’t collapse (the Court is litered with it)? Why? The only reason why is because they can’t will it at all.

[quote]Would this include military grade equipment with it higher tolerances?[/quote]

So there is militaty grade [b]silk[/b] now? Or military grade [b]wood[/b]? Don’t tell me there is military grade wine? Your kidding right?

[quote]Can the matter of an item be changed as it is brought though even if the visual is unchanged?[/quote]

So the matter in the wine and other beverages have changed? Water into what? Alcohol into what? Antioxidants into what? Would the wine still be wine if that happens?

[quote]Eh, call it psychic ability or animus ability. Both can be described as mental thought & concentration to affect a change to the world. Call it what you will. However, I do agree that a loss of attention may cause it to fail, but what if it is a case of belief = reality? It isn’t easy to believe something you know to be untrue, but because the demon’s accept that they can pull things over and have it safely endure, it does. However, they also know that living things can’t tolerate the heat for long, so they don’t. Just throwing it out there.[/quote]

That is not the case here, you know that right? Your “what if” isn’t how it works in the book so is invalid argument.

[quote]If there is a formal definition then nope! I was using the term “fluid reality” to describe a situation where what we perceive to be true can be changed. I was deliberately implying god-like powers, super-psychics, and non-material realities. What is a plane? How does it work? How does it differ? These are not really discussed except for the Astral Plane. Maybe the Abyss (Abyss Plane?) is a plane with its own rules and they are subject to change unlike Astlan which may be a fixed plane whose rules cannot be changed.[/quote]

Huh? Are you arguing behind the veil of ambiguity? It isn’t wrong because it has no defined meaning? It has no formal definition so it is correct? What kind of argument is that?

If it was Godlike powers, then God! why don’t they will a chair appear instead of stealing it. Why don’t they wil fresher air. Why don’t they will the streets to be clean. Why don’t they will anything? Answer? Because they can’t.

[quote]Yep! As long as the world is internally consistent I’ll accept it. It doesn’t have to be explained. I know that lampshading doesn’t explain it, but if we have Tom notice the fact, notice that it doesn’t matter, and then move on I’ll be fine and consider the issue resolved because it works within the framework of the story. Of course, he could also look deeper and learn to abuse his knowledge, but there are demons from higher-tech worlds which could have done the same, but it seems didn’t so… who knows?[/quote]

You are contradicting yourself. You say you’ll accept it as long as the world is internally consisitent; but you agree in lampshading. Lampshading is a deliberate spotlighting of inconsistencies then just moving on without explaining it. Often used humorously. Here is a rather more extensive definition of it:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LampshadeHanging

If the author lampshade something then it is accepted that the world is inconsistent and implausible. Since you only accept if the world is consistent, then a work that lampshades should not be acceptable to you.

@Madfox:

The Court changes then confirmed that? Don’t you know that cities constantantly changes? Don’t think that New York City looks the same now as it was hundred years ago? Do City of London in 19th century the same City of London now? Or do you think that every city would remain the same and idenitical through the ages for eternity?

Things constantly changes. It is not surprising that The Court changes… because it should. It is the way things work. I would have been more astounded if The Court of Chaos has remain the same since its founding than finding it changing.

@lume

I don’t really understand how the incredulity of what Madfox is saying escape your attention.

@Tizzy

If what you say was true, then the things they stole should have not worked. Electronics for example uses the physics (electicity, magnetism, light, capacitance, induction, etc.). The piano strings create their sound due to vibrations and the physics that go with it. These things are very much calibrated to the physics they work in. You know how things greatly change when small variations, like how the tone of the piano would change if the tension of the string is changed by a few Nestons. If physics don’t work the same way in the Abyss, then these devices should not work at all because the technology that drives them no longer works.

Just think. How would things change if instead of F=ma its F=1.5ma? Think of how it would have change engineering?

“The Abyss also has relatively easy access to various Planes of Men that Astlan does not. In particular, the Abyss doesn’t seem to care about the physics of various Planes of Men.”

Then why do humans in Astlan need to protect themselves from the heat? Somehow the law of physics apply to them but not to a glass of wine? If the temperature is uncomfortable for a person, then it is not good for the wine, as wine masters would say. If want example of violation of internal physics this should be it.

And I think you would come with a more complicated explanation for this. *sigh*

I mean… come on people. You can’t justify the unjustifiable. Why can’t you accept that the logic is faulty?

What’s unhealthy about demonic cultural conditioning?

If you read it enough, you’ll start seeing how reasonable demons are, and how unreasonable humans are and pretty soon your thoughts will be on a higher plane of reasoning and you’ll be able to see truths not apparent to mortals.

Rosver, you are coming across to me as quite angry and responding without taking the time to think things through. I have a hypothesis with musings & evidence and a conclusion that I can present, but it is rather long so if you promise to take a moment to write down your response, shelve it, come back after a few hours and re-read & edit before responding, will you do so?

Hmmm. Being a beta reader seems interesting. Hope I’m picked!

Those Oostemoth are hillariously crazy. And they being serious in their craziness just multiply it hundred of times. Well, I now know that serious and insane could go together.

Those romance writers are just in to it for the O.

@Rosver

Yes, that was a typo. I meant Ramses place, but typed Exador’s palace.

so just read the thing again knowing I meant Ramses palace but mistyped.

Correct: Exador doesn’t spend much time in the Abyss, this comes up in Book 2, as does his Penthouse in the Courts.

His main domicile is in Astlan and has been for well over a thousand years…he may have other places for his miniions but this has never been mentioned. There is lots of talk of his human minions but not much about his demon ones, yet we know he has them, they were living in the Council Palace for a while, where they went “home to” is an interesting question. Presumably not his castle in Astlan as his humans would freak out.

@Madfoxii

I am also rooting for me to be the Overlord of the Abyss. I’m just not sure how I’m going to know if I am. I’m thinking if I start a rumor about it, maybe in a few thousand years it will become accepted knowledge and I’ll just be the defacto “secret” overlord of the abyss.

Maybe then I can get some demonesses to sleep with me.