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I like it – the orcs/D’orks are fun – the ultimate underdogs! having lacked supernatural representation for thousands of years and generally having been abused by the other races…they seem pretty cool and for various reasons i’m totally hoping they kick some serious arse in DOA – now that they have their “god” back. However dare i say please hold off on the tangential series until DOA is done- or at least this arc is done.
Speaking of the whole God thing – does the fact that Tom is effectively their god mean he gets a mana stream through the activated shamans … in the same way that Tiernon gets one through his priests? presumably this will kick in as belief in him grows – giving him his innate mana, the mana from mount doom and the mana stream he gets from those that worship him ….. if he activated the whole spacefaring tribes that could in theory be more than tiernon… or certainly on par…
[u]on trimming[/u]
i agree some of the less interesting bits need trimming (the harry potter style roller coaster / boring bits of the trip, and the sexed crazed older woman thing seems slightly over done) however there are bits that could be extrapolated – characters and races in the grove … the problem will be doing it in an interesting manner. There is an element of overload here – almost too many characters and races – none of whom you can really appreciate prior to moving on to the next. i think someone like Hilda (from the grove rather than heaven) who we can get behind and who can bring the grove alive might help, who can meet and study J&G (perhaps she could be a spy for the The Grove – CIA/MI6?) in an attempt to get to know/monitor them … however that might be a little to similar to the Hilda plot line.[u]On The Grove in general[/u]
my main problem with the grove was the hippy commune style living environment existing hand in hand with the Israel like political environment – i may be reading it wrong but the grove struck me as a nation of refugees protected but still interested in the world below, hence their cloudships, and the later murgratory link etc. – the focus seemed to be on them having a good time – which is all very well but it strikes me that they would be more concerned with the events going on in the real world and that their first instinct wouldn’t be to party but to question and confirm details of the story.the party like bits with nymphs etc. could still happen in the sidelines with J&G experiencing hangovers uninvited pillows etc.
Questions
-Is The Grove another player?- like the Ooos/Tiernans/Liliths cabal/wizards council?- if so what’s their angle and philosophy? i get what/why everyone else is interested – but the grove’s interest seems messy – or are they a platform of conflicting political viewpoints – each race wanting different things… like the UN…– if so what and who make up the grove – who leads it and does any race dominate it – if its a coalition are there key leaders, are their political party politics at play…. i don’t know if i missed this or if i am looking for two much – but the danger of introducing the grove as an element is i want to know these things … or at least some of them …. and delivering them in an interesting manner is gonna be difficult.
thoughts
– if a large part of the grove scenes are just a vehicle for introducing races – then i think you can afford to take your time / cut some of them until later – personally i felt a little like i was at a large party where i knew no one and person after person was introduced to me in a blur and all i could think of was what was for supper (in this case what tom was up to) whilst i’m interested in the races i’m not in a desperate rush to meet them all at once – in general a slow introduction with a fewer more personable characters seems better (to me anyway).TBH – i thought the whole grove thing was a massive distraction, from the rest of the book- i loved the other story lines ( hilda’s and tom’s esp.) but the grove just seemed lost – i hope you don’t take this as a bash – its not meant to be – i’m a huge fan – i just think it needs work and anchoring.
[b][u]idea[/u][/b]
whilst it might not work, there is the possibility of introducing the Grove early on – a report received by the leadership of the grove (which could be used to refresh peoples/readers minds on what has been happening) – them ordering trevis to bring any witnesses she can to the grove for further questioning (which is why she so helpfully volunteers transport…) – the leadership could also set up a couple of agents (different races/sexes) to be tasked with investigating the issue … that way we could be introduced to the grove/ its races/ its politics early on and it would provide some spice from the agents perspective – as well as letting us learn more about J&G. some of J&G’s activity could be viewed from the third person. just an idea.83.1 I thought the Anselm demon bit, with the ontological argument, could use a little more work – i haven’t studied it for years but that paragraph seemed a little unclear, i admit its one of the more bizarre arguments for he existence of god …however i think it could have been expressed more elegantly
from wikipedia ” Anselm defined God as “that than which nothing greater can be conceived”, and argued that this being must exist in the mind; even in the mind of the person who denies the existence of God. He suggested that, if the greatest possible being exists in the mind, it must also exist in reality. If it only exists in the mind, then an even greater being must be possible … Therefore, this greatest possible being must exist in reality.”
I liked the idea of using Anselm and the ontological argument it in principle – but think the execution could use some work.
Another possible solution would be not to detail the ontological argument… just reference it
I’m not sure if i’m alone on this one or not – but i seriously wasn’t enamoured with the Jenn Gatrophe/Grove adventure piece – i get that they are en route somewhere important and whilst bits of their journey worked …a lot of it came across as filler – it seriously increased the page count and i’m not sure to what advantage, plot-wise…
An aetos (winged dude/gal) character more in the forefront might have helped/ given us a glimpse into their culture, they just kinda popped up as guards and then remained in the background.
Over all that plot line just seemed a little lacklustre – and i skimmed … i never thought i’d skim one of these books … but this particular side story just didn’t grab me.
Perhaps it’s just me – but i think this whole side story needs a lot of work….
Thoughts?
[color=darkred][/color][color=red] i jago would be a beta demon .. or an alpha demon .. i’ll take omega demon if it helps! [/color]
The new version is much clearer, on the ontological argument … however i am sort of left wondering why it’s there though … as in what it adds to the plot … not sure if this will work but i’d suggest adding it to version 2 and having it as a topic for discussion.
As I said, I like it well enough on its own however it seems like it might be too lecturing in tone unless it can tie into the plot/ conversation, be relevant to the storyline. perhaps he could have been destroyed and a comment could be made about the fact that being different in the Abyss can have consequences and that Tom needs to bear it in mind (lilith)… and that wishing and arguing for something don’t make it so (general unfairness of the situation), and that rationality and logic don’t always match reality (his doubt and questions).
on the text itself:
“Anselm, he was, or I suppose is, an Archdemon popular about 1700 years ago. He was probably the only religious demon ever.”
was or is? – if is, then why say “he was” in the following sentence; if was, then why did he disappear.
also does he need to be an Archdemon – he could simply be remembered as a lesson in not pissing everyone off – facing up to “reality” (pantheon of gods)
just thoughts could be barking – however the explanation as it is is likely a page or more on the kindle …. and aside from the information one wonders why Antefalken good into so much depth.
“could have decimate them, taken out 1 in 10″.
2 things:
thing one: could have decimat[b][i]ed [/i][/b]them – [i]to decimate, he decimated, they are decimating … i think [/i]
thing two: having used decimate/d it is unnecessary to then express what it means (taken out 1 in 10) its a bit like saying ” this is a bachelors room, a room for unmarried men” … aside from being unnecessary the implication is that the reader doesn’t know the meaning of decimated and if so that they would be unwilling to look it up.
