Demon power ups

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    [-o< What are gods? If magic is shaped by belief in Astlan then is it perhaps possible that the gods might not exist8-[ ? If a god is a primordial force could it merely be a mass of mana. If so could one consume a god to gain its power? People said that Tiernon only take on the aspects their worshipers think they should. [-x The mirror didn't show evil, but auras. And if Tiernon was a true god he should be able to understand that the demons were once human. If so he would know they aren't evil. [-( Hidden thoughts:-" (Really I just want to see Tom consume a god and become something like a demonic god unbound to his name because it would be fun to watch and screw with everybody's heads that some teenage kid has done so much in the pursuit of ](*,) non-boredom.)


    So many questions…so many answers to with hold as torture!

    Bwah hah hah hah…

    Actually what gods are is a somewhat complicated question that will take at least 3 if not 4 books to work out…

    BTW for your own safety Maou…I wouldn’t say things like “if Tiernon was a true god” it’s liable to get you a divine intervention…say a lightning bolt in an unpleasant location.

    Also, given the way the gods like to cause misery for humans, particularly those of other religions…my suspicion is that Tiernon doesn’t care what you were, so much as what you are now. Who’s side are you on today?

    –my perspective in those two sentences is sort of from the agnostic point of view: pointing out “facts” that in the minds of most are incontrovertible to “some” group. So the first is from the perspective of demons, the second wizards…i.e. everyone has preconceptions that get in the way of reality.

    I think…across the board you would find (will find 8-[ –if you’ve read the really long discussion on the author’s author page at Amazon you’ll know what I mean by “will find”) that there is a pretty broad range of emotional responses from demons towards humans. Most from purely self interested points of view.

    The good example here are the 3 ArchDemons in the peanut gallery for the “final conflict.” They don’t particularly hate humans, no more than you or I hate insects and assorted vermin.

    Which is also the way that the very human Lenamare feels about pretty much everyone except Jehenna and himself…others are pawns/tools.

    A huge part of book 2 is the fall out from that final battle…and how perspectives shift after a first set of revelations…i.e. we’ve now played the opening hand in the poker game. Did it change Tom? Does it change how others see and treat Tom? Where the “hell” did Edwyrd and Rupert go, by the way?


    BTW…rereading to make sure I caught everything…

    “the pursuit of non-boredom” is very very important.

    Demons like myself have been around for a very long time, and most of us will be around for a lot longer.

    While “existential dread” is not that bad for demons, we plan to be here in a few thousand years, and maybe a million or more…

    But that’s a LOT of time to fill. A LOT of what what Immortals (or near Immortals) do is motivated by amusement, and non-boredom.

    I mean, seriously? [i][b]Who wants to be sitting on a fluffly cloud playing a harp for the next 13 billion years?[/b][/i]



    You express “Thoughts that make one go: hmmmm.”



    He put the link on an existing “Holy Artifact of Tiernon” that was the key (shhhhhh don’t tell anyone). It’s what allowed him to penetrate the mana stream, in a manner similar to how those arrows could affect Talarius’ armor.

    Pretty sure Sir T would object to calling him and his friends mana sucking vampires. Talarius knows about vampires…ahh Melisance…boo hoo already so you lost someone sheesh, what a windbag…

    the energy blasts vs Lenamare were pure spirit blasts on the astral plane. Lenamare’s wardings and spells brunted most of the damage, but he felt it, bad.

    Sort of like a “Spirit Wrack” that those nasty wizards use on us demons…


    [quote=Tizzy;99]He put the link on an existing “Holy Artifact of Tiernon” that was the key (shhhhhh don’t tell anyone). It’s what allowed him to penetrate the mana stream, in a manner similar to how those arrows could affect Talarius’ armor.

    Yes, the big question will be, will he be able to copy the workings of the Arrows.
    And if not, will the Arrows work on priests/god connections of other faiths.


    The big problem is that each deity has their own “signature” that identifies them and their representatives.

    In particular, we know from historical experience that holy artifacts are not generally cross religion usable, except for some minor ones.
    Meaning that for Holy (magic) Armor to work, you have to be of the same religion as whoever made the armor.

    So to do the same thing for/to another deity would require an object made by a priest of that other deity.


    =; o:) Have white text surrounding them.
    So [color=red][size=9]The Tomatic Demon=d> [/size][/color] can access [color=white]Tier’s divineo:) power[/color] through his [color=yellow]holy arrows[-o< [/color]. If he could emulate the blessings of a [color=white]godo:)[/color] he could then steal their powers. Most[size=7][color=black] demon's[/color][/size] don't grow more powerful with age for some reason despite the increase in [color=orange][color=red]animus[/color][/color] that should occur, unless the abyss is so barren that their is nothing to pick up, and continuous[color=red] torture[/color] allows for no new experience to be picked up. If so it would explain how weaker demons don't grow. Also the soul of a person is their [color=orange]animus[/color]. Everybody seems to think that demons consume souls to grow more powerful, so why don't demons consume the souls of those they slay to acquire; additional power, animus, experience, or whatever it is inside somebody's soul and whatever benefit it might bring to a demon. Magic is based upon belief and since so many people think a demon can corrupt and consume their soul why not consume their souls? Demons are on a [size=7][color=red]c[/color][color=orange]o[/color][color=yellow]n[/color][color=olive]t[/color][color=green]i[/color][color=cyan]n[/color][color=blue]u[/color][color=darkblue]o[/color][color=indigo]u[/color][color=violet]s[/color][/size] spectrum of power so why don't more demons advance from [color=red]1[/color] to[color=orange] 2[/color], or[color=orange] 2[/color] to [color=yellow]3[/color], ...etc.


    No…I think I said they do advance, or can advance..typically they just take a really long time to do it but they have time. And a great number of them never do, just like many humans never rise to become CEO’s, Senators, Presidents, Sultans, Cardinals and Popes..

    I wouldn’t go so far as to say there aren’t some demons who do exactly what you suggest i terms of sould consumption. However, most would have no real idea of how to do so. Remember animus and mana are not physical, so it’s not going to be clear “how” one would consume or assimilate other’s animus or mana. There are a number of creatures, particularly undead that do this naturally as part of their design…but it’s not something demons come built in with. If they could figure out how to do it, or someone taught them, they probably would do it.

    But remember, assuming some super high powered demons have figured out how to do this, legends say that they do know how and do do this, they aren’t going to share this information with others because it’s a race for power. You don’t want to give the other demons any advantages.


    i remember that the knight saw 2 blue, 1 pale blue and 1 green demon in the palace. it the stands to reason that Tom is the pale blue, Rammus and Exador blue and Rupert green.
    Tom is a new demon so he still have a lot of time to get better at magic and it looks like he found some way to make himself stronger from that god at the end so he is probably stronger now or got some other special power from that. Maybe he can do it again on their gods/demon/wizard or the same god again but i don’t believe that will happen any time soon.


    I would agree…that sounds like what I told the author guy to write about the numbers and the logic seems good to me.

    ..just a moment, my pipe went out….

    …..gotta light it….

    waaahhh…..sweet….that’s better…..

    what were we talking about?


    What about Bess though, wasn’t she in the building at the time also?


    If a demon becomes more powerful – lets say something that started as a shadow grows to become a archdemon over the ages – would it’s demonic true form change as it got stronger or would it always be what it started as?


    Seems plausible to me.

    If you can shapeshift, then after several thousand years, you are the only person that remembers what you originally looked like because you don’t use that form any more, and no one can force you into it via summoning, then my guess is that whatever your most common form is would sort of become your “defacto” new form.

    But then again…maybe not?:-k

    It would be interesting to see, anyone want to try to force Lillith back into her original form? If so, please let me know so I can be on the other side of the Abyss.


    Some of my thoughts.

    As one has new experiences, if you learn from them, you grow. Think of it like kind of like a well. You start out in life with a shaft down into the “bedrock” of your potential. When you start out with a well, only a certain amount of water(animus) will collect at a given time based on the size/depth of the well. As you grow, the well grows, thus allowing more and more animus to collect. So if a demon(or human) grows through experience then it can accumulate more animus, and thus more mana. This would be a long process, picture chipping away at the bottom of that well with a little hammer and chisel. In the case of a demon, however, I see there being a special point in the initial summoning. Basically if the summoners perceive a “demon” to be more powerful, they force mana into it during the binding. In this analogy I’m thinking of the mana as a combination gravity/air pressure, it is what gives the animus(water) structure and holds it together. So if you FORCE extra mana(air) into the well, it over pressurizes it, causing an artificial enlarging of the well. This allows the requisite amount of animus that is required to maintain the level of mana imposed on the “demon”.
    Without this the extra mana could “strangle” the animus, as if increased air pressure were pushing the water back into the rock around the well, decreasing the amount in it. Enough of this could take you below the point of self-awareness, so since demons are obviously self aware, they must acquire the amount of animus capable of offsetting the mana forced on them.
    So through this mechanic Tom could have acquired more animus than his experience would allow for. It is possible that this increased animus, or enlarging of his soul, could explain the stability he has shown despite the fact that his own personal level of growth should not have allowed it. If you are thinking of animus as a soul, then it is possible that because Tom’s was artificially increased, it allowed more of a buffer, or stretching room, or something for the shock.

    On gods. If you assume that the gods were not always there, and judging by the statements that multiple pantheons exist we can infer that this is probably the case, then one can further assume that they were created through some process. Now if you assume that you are starting from a mortal idea/belief, then one has a possible way in which this can occur(if I am understanding the relationship between mana and animus correctly). If you have a large enough base of mortals, channeling mana into an extra-planar space, then it is conceivable for this channeled mana to over time increase up to a tipping point. Once this point is reached there will be enough mana to form its own “plane” through pressure against whatever there is in-between planes. Once this plane is established, there is a place for animus which is attracted by the large amount of mana to collect. And once this animus reaches its own tipping point, you have self awareness. Now since its only source of contact and sustenance is the believers, it is not that far of a jump to assume that this animus will take on the values and form that the believers give it (along the lines of the formation of a demons body. But since it is not self-aware before this point it does not start with its own conflicting beliefs as a demon would). However after it reaches self-awareness it can begin diverging from the original template, and thus shift, and be shifted by, the believers over time.
    This would also explain why most cults (the starting point of any religion) do not produce lasting gods. They are either unable to reach the tipping point, or once reached are unable to sustain it.
    Also if an established religion declined, then due to a lack of influx of mana the plane of that religions gods might implode, or if there is enough mana before hand to maintain an equilibrium simply split off from the host plane and drift until either it implodes, or another connection is made, or the god is able to find a way to shift to another plane(maybe what happens with new religions adopting and changing old gads?)

    Ofcourse I could be COMPLETELY wrong in all of this, but figured I’d weigh in!

    Edit: Additional thought. If my assumption on the increased animus from summoning is correct, it could also explain Tom’s new “ruthlessness” in certain situations. Since the increase was formed by the forced mana, it would be imprinted with the expectations of the summoners, not by Tom’s own experiences. This would also explain why it was originally like a switch being turned on and off, but later he found it becoming more a part of him. This would be because as he assimilated the new animus it would change and be changed by his original animus, thus incorporating aspects of both in the final result.

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