Wizards and Demons

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    Ooh, there is excruciating detail in OOA on this very issue, both in the appendix and in discussions, and in book 4 where they cross over.

    The key to keep in mind however, and I admit this was confusing, I said Gormegast Galactic Light Year meaning the localverse, we call the localverse Gormegast, which, of course is kind of dumb, because we also refer to the Visteroth localverse, and they are both the same localverse, just different galaxies, millions and millions of “Earth” light years apart.

    And it’s also wrong because the Galactic Year and the Galactic Light Year was defined by, us, the Doompire and we use it pretty consistently everywhere where we had space empires, although you are correct in that the speed of light can be different, the GY (pronouced Geee) is not. But the speed of light is completely wacky in many places.

    Anyway Gormegast is the “home planet”/capital of the Gormegast Horde Eternal which controls the Antilles Cluster. In the cluster time is measured either in planetary terms or galactic terms. Obviously planetary times change from planet to planet, however the Galactic Units are consistent and independent of planet.

    A GY is basically 2.5 Astlan/CoC years or 2.85 Earth Years

    The speed of light is pretty close in both Gormegast and Earth, we only have theoretical measurements for the Abyss, and we’re not even sure that’s accurate, as for Astlan, there are some big error bars on the measurements due to the very different physics.

    But coming down to it 1 GLY=1.143859649 Earth parsecs or 1 GLY=2.693e13 Earth km


    you got me, I wasn’t specific enough
    Where were you during the battle where Orcus died, before being reborn as Tom? I think you might have had something to do with how he ended up on Earth.
    I have a hard time believing that the interdiction stopped you. If there was a way to keep The Tisdale out of a plane, everyone would use it. All of the time.
    I can see you saving some fragment of Orcus and taking it to earth to heal for a few millennia.
    Or maybe the phoenix cycle is just that unstoppable and any killed deity will return eventually. It would explain why Tartarus is so successful.

    Also, you singing thunderstruck was one of my favorite moments of the book.


    Tartarvardenennead (could they come up with a more complicated name?)

    Anyway, I don’t think any of the readers are fooled by Tizzy. He is certainly more than just a simple Fiend. I keep getting the feeling that age is one part of a Demons power base. The older a Demon becomes, the more power they can access. Given what everyone in Doom has said, Tizzy has been there for several Arch-Demon arrivals. Arg-nargoloth is something like 20,000 years old and he remembers Tizzy. Both Ramses and Exedor recall meeting him (I couldn’t point to chapter and page number to verify this, but I do seem to remember it being mentioned). If that is the case, Tizzy certainly has the age to be at least a Greater Demon. Though, my hypothesis is the Concordonax.


    Yeah, squirm as much as they want, that was really a flub in the original movie.

    They had to do a lot of head scratching to come up with a scientifically correct interpretation in “Solo: A Star Wars Story” and I admit, the way they justify the expression there is correct…but it was a flub in the original movie.


    Cool, thanks, most of my post was speculation so I’m glad some was right.
    I had just started re-listening to Into the Abyss, and as they were binding Tom, it just struck me that it must have really sucked developing all of those demon bindings. If you mess up a basic wind spell, either the wind doesn’t blow or it blows the wrong way or a bit too hard. If you mess up a basic demon summoning, you get fed your own feet. Its pretty risky, but someone had to do it.


    You do know I am considerably taller than ‘The Big C’, yes?

    Again, many people have seen me with ‘The Big C’

    Just not lately.


    So wizardry is basically magic science. In my mind, this means that, like science, they learned through mostly trial and error, especially in the beginning. So here’s my thought:
    Animages, shamans, priests, and other mana users were around long before modern wizardry. They all had their own methods for dealing with demons who are also much older than wizardry
    Animages would bind demons with their will and overwhelming mana. It is virtually identical to how the demons themselves operate, as we’ve seen with Exador. And because of the difficulty, they use demons much more rarely than wizards, or at least animages that mess with demons are much rarer than wizards
    Shamans treat demons with respect like any other spirit that they contact, and again, do it very rarely if at all.
    Priests only deal with demons in one capacity, and its not slavery, its battle, which demons can respect.
    I’m assuming that there are other types of mana users that haven’t come up yet, and I also assume that they don’t act like wizards

    So for millennia demons are rarely summoned and respected when they are, when all of a sudden, here comes the wizards.
    They are thirsty for knowledge, curious about everything, and extremely arrogant. They know about demons, but haven’t yet developed spells to bind them. They probably even know some true names from history or legends. But they haven’t created all of the super fancy bindings with super specific names constantly mentioned in the books. I’m willing to bet that hundreds of wizard researchers died trying to create wizardly demon bindings. Which is why the successful ones are so famous. A wizard like Lenamare might have sacrificed dozens of students testing out prospective summonings. And with every failure, the demons escaped, and enraged at the attempt to bind them, slaughtered the summoner. So now, the wizards have the tales of hundreds of wizards being slaughtered, while the demons are suddenly being summoned left and right with much stronger bindings than they had ever seen before. So now two very prideful and violent groups are being given even more reason to hate each other.
    Plus, it has to be much easier for a wizard to pass a binding to a student or a descendant than it is for an animage to do the same.
    Oh, and there’s also those rings the wizards are so fond of.

    So, Tizzy, is this at all accurate, or do demons hate all summoners equally and just refer to wizards the most since they the most common summoners? And do wizards just hate demons like they do because of old legends, and not because of massacres in the early days of wizardy?


    I’d believe it was a non-wizard summoning you
    or a friend
    or it was a lie to sneak off somewhere to take care of some Tizzy stuff
    or whatever, I was just curious


    cookies!! but seriously, demon weed is valuable and you have the best supply

    also I just want to say how much I enjoy this series. Every character is a real person. There’s no “villain” everyone is doing what they think is best. Several times during this read through I’m doing right now ( its at least my fifteenth time through, I really need more) I’ve wanted to stop and post here about how much I love some character, but then stopped myself. I love them all. Pretty much the only character I don’t care about is Alvea, and thats just because her whole character so far is that she’s sad that Rex is dead. Oh, and Trevin D’vils because I’m pretty sure she’s at least part alfar and acts like a diplomat, ruining perfectly good wars with her talking.

    This is the only series I can read this many times and still laugh at all the jokes and stupid situations.
    So, thank you for writing this T-A-G


    Wow, I am really glad that Tizzy was lying about killing his accursed master on the ship. I do not like the imagery of Tizzy raping someone 69 times.


    Again, I think I’d know if I was that leathery trouble maker…

    But more importantly, you can ask people who’ve seen me and the Concordenax together in the same room.

    I would, of course say, Orcus, but his memory is even worse than mine at the moment.

    :-$ Arg-nargoloth! He’s definitely been in the same room, as has Darg Krallnom and so many more.

    Also, you mentioned gods before current gods–did I mention them in a spoiler? Don’t recall now, that’s a slight problem with my pipe, it does tend to cause a bit of forgetfulness. Anyway, that, of course, gets to the heart of the issue, now doesn’t? That’s what caused this entire mess! Or at least half, or a third, or maybe a quarter, but that is what caused a lot of problems that eventually led us to where we are now. That previous generation of gods, or rather the previous previous gods–or maybe they are the previous previous previous previous previous previous previous gods.

    The most recent previous generation is, of course, safely locked away in Tartarus holding up planets, getting their livers plucked out repeatedly, etc etc.


    Thoughts on why demons and wizards hate each other more than other mana users


    I am so glad you like my singing! :d/

    It’s odd how few people have complimented me on that. 8-[

    As to where I was, [SPOILER]I had been there, but Arg-nargoloth and I headed to the Etterdam Doomalogue when we found out it was under attack, which was before Orcus was slain. Unfortunately, it was a long flight, even at Arg-naroloth’s maximum flight speed of about 50 leagues per hour, (I can go a little faster but can’t carry him)

    So we got there a bit late, just in time to chase her (and her army) out…after the fact and then we had to assess damage, and since the Doomalogue was already down/offline, so we didn’t realize when the entire system went down.[/SPOILER]


    I bet you are onto something with shaman’s vs wizards.

    Particularly because wizards would very tightly guard the true names of demons they new. I would suspect shamans would hand them down a bit more, both to their apprentices and to others. In particular if the demon was known to be amenable to deals in exchange for payment. You could see them having an entire lore of demons to summon for certain causes and reasons.

    I personally have never been summoned by a shaman, and to be honest, it’s been a very long time since I’ve been summoned, except by my current Accursed Master, Gastrope’. I think he was the first wizard to summon me in aeons. Which is a bit odd…

    I know, I know, you probably think I’m just being paranoid. It’s not like the wizards have a “do not call list” for demons; do they? Sometimes it feels that way. [sad]

    Even if they did, I mean, why would I be on it? I’m like the most helpful demon I know!

    As for where I was, well at first I was singing and leading the band, and since I knew I had to be going, I put together the set list for the rest of the battle.

    I then had to head over to the Citadel to get Rede. That took me a while since, having not been there in probably six thousand years, it had changed a lot and grown a lot. So, I got a bit lost for a while. Place is like a giant maze with multiple levels. And I had to be very stealthy because, what with all the Five Sibling priests and avatars running around, if I’d been spotted, there would probably have been a freak out. If you hadn’t noticed, they generally don’t like demons that much.


    By someone had to do it, I meant that it had to have happened for wizardry to reach the level it has. Obviously it didn’t “need” to be done, except from the wizards’ point of view.

    About baby demons, that could be another reason that wizards are so hated. Wizards are much more likely to summon new demons, except for special cases like d’orcings. Shamans and animages are less likely to bind a being against its will. Especially with how the d’orcing went, it should be pretty obvious that you are dealing with just a human ( or other) that got caught by accident. Shamans especially seem a lot more likely to summon a traditional, known demon than try to bind a new one, in the extremely rare cases they need a demon ( again ignoring d’orcs).
    So theres a bunch of demons running ( flying) around hating they’re first masters for binding them, and then sharing their names, and pretty soon its, “all wizards are evil.” Look how quickly Tom was convinced.

    Speaking of Tom, Tizzy, where were you during Orcus’s last battle. I’ve got some theories that might involve you and your monkey pal.

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