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    The next problem, however, is that avatars don’t die easily.

    Now, for example, Beragamos is incarnated and his body can actually die. However, he’s powerful enough that he’d just reform a mana body upon death of the body, just like all the other avatars currently have.

    They are pure energy beings, and centuries old, they regenerate and can immediately heal as Tom did. So you really need to get them down on the ropes or use soul sucking magic.

    BTW, they will be vulnerable again, once this magic is known, people will keep using it. Exador will certainly be using this against his enemies. When he realized that people were relaying, he began thinking of using an oscillating mechanism that would flip between blocking local and off plane links. If you get the time right, the people inside won’t be able to reestablish their links fast enough. I.e. you break the connection, they try to reset to the other route and then it gets broken.

    I don’t think he can realistically do it, live, in battle. He’s no Lenamare, after all, but he will be thinking about it between battles.


    [quote=Iume;5234]I’m starting to get a WoT vibe that makes them drag and are less interesting to read.[/quote]

    Which parts are giving you WoT feelies? Specifically, if you can. I need to avoid those like the [size=6][color=green][b][i]plague![/i][/b][/color][/size].


    [quote=Iume;5267]Basically the Rupert/Fer Rog, the Tal Gar, and Ragala-nargoloth parts.

    Also, the Inferno scenes unless it is actually going somewhere in this book.I presume it meant to be part of an as-of-yet unread cliffhanger but since that cliffhanger moment hasn’t happened…

    Basically these journeys happen and only minimally intersect with Tom’s story, and then…they just end.Right now they are more like separate stories rather than an interwoven tale and that was RJ’s sin.I skipped the boring stories a character had within each book and stuck to the interesting ones.[/quote]

    I agree on RJ, it really drove me nuts, and I am having trouble keeping it together. There are reasons for all of these things, but making them relevant in any single book is very difficult.

    This is one reason for CoW:ITA, move some stuff into separate books.

    The problem with this is making sure readers know what books go where, and what order do you need to read in?

    Plus, the other point to these stories is so you get the other side’s perspective.

    So in large part the Jenn & Hilda stories are to show you what “the others are doing”

    Jenn/Tal Gor etc that will come in to play the next book as the battle with the elves heats up. Something that I had thought would be more in this book (hence Apostles of Doom).

    However, in the HH Beta, we moved both the Storm Lords and Knights of Chaos up to inject excitement, that pulls the Dark Apostle story forward and pushes the Nimbus/Elves back.

    So, this answers the other thing people don’t like: The short attention span/short sections. This is designed to avoid RJSyndrome, and not let people zone out due to impatience.


    [quote=The Author Guy;5286]
    1) Sammael basically needs to find them when/while, they are parked, if he literally chases them around the Abyss, that’s awkward.
    Who says he has to meet them after they arrive? What if he seems them after they start searching? In book 3 they meet simply because the Inferno stumbles over him. So in book 4 have it stumble over him elsewhere.

    [quote=The Author Guy;5286]
    2) Tom can’t be home when the Inferno shows up at Doom.
    So he is rebuilding on Astlan dealing with the coming war with the alvar or at another Doomalogue getting things setup.

    [quote=The Author Guy;5286]
    But…on the other hand…I do sort of want the reader to know what the status of Melissance is when Talarius vows to get her.
    Make final cliffhanger scene a homey scene w/ Melissance and her husband. Change it so she knows that their new castle is a lure for Talarius and have her be glad that she’ll get her revenge on being adanboned despite how it gave her a better life and a loving family. Have her be a bit “corrupted”, but not evil. Sort of scorning Talarius by planning to throw her happy demon family/life at Talarius knowing her husband can beat him up should he try to kill her. A odd twist on Stockholm syndrome + revenge fantasy on her part.

    That’d be a great emotional punch to reader. Either to open Book 4 or to end Book 3 after Talarius vows to rescue Melissance.

    [quote=The Author Guy;5286]
    Also, I point out that the knights on the Inferno are coming to the same conclusion that Talarius had that their previous reactions make no sense because EM is no longer a bad influence

    I’m sort of afraid that by putting the Knights recognition of this into the next book it sort of dilutes–strings out–this recognition of evil influence.
    So don’t have them recognize this. Let’s rework the emotional rollercoaster and how the plot should play out if we move to book 4. What would it look like? We don’t want to retread it, so if we didn’t have in book 3 and we omit in book 4 what would the scenes be like?


    [quote=Iume;5308]The big things that still need to be handled in this book:
    – Talarius’s final resolution
    – Jenn
    – Inferno (unless moved to Bk4)
    – Tiernon’s choice
    – Doomalogue journey (unless moved to Into the Wilds) need to actually reach the base of the volcanos.Maybe not restart, but at least reach and find occupants.Then in Tom needs to make a choice.Support his own people or support deals/oaths made with allied forces?[/quote]

    I am not sure on the Talarius final resolution, or what you mean specifically, I sort of see that as hanging. He’s battling things out, but I would see aftermath in book 4

    Yes, Jenn and the Tal Gor wrap up. Do we want Jenn’s epiphany in this book? Or should it slide. It almost has to happen during the battle or close to it.

    Does the Inferno need a wrap? At this point, they are off searching again. Do they feel like they are hanging too much, assuming they stay here.

    What was Tiernon’s choice? You mean on Sentir Fallon? If so, that’s going to get complicated by Sentir’s storyline, he may be need to find a new employer….

    Doomalogue Journey is Book 4…CoA:ITA is a completely new story line that intersects with this story line. The first intersection of which has already happened in this book. There will be more interaction in Book 4. I see it as intersecting and then maybe splitting off, criss crossing.

    Unfortunately, the real Apostles of Doom story sort of got away from this book. Stuff that was supposed to happen here is getting postponed by Nysegard and the Storm Lords.

    As far as sliding things, at this point, if it helps us build a better climax to stay focused on the battle, I am willing to let concurrent stuff elsewhere (like Jenn, Inferno) slide into book 4 and back date those sections like I did at the beginning of those books.

    Lots of options on the table.


    Fixed, I hope.

    Was in too much of a hurry, was trying to hurry so I could fix my spaghetti to eat while watching The Strain. [woot]


    have Ramses kill off a plot armor type avatar which he used to fight when the avatar was human.
    he can be a former wielder of Ruiden. and happened to kill ramses twice during the anilord years.
    you know killing Ramses when he is still in his teens. then another once he is in his thirties.

    then ramses plots his demise and he is attacked by 7 time warriors he happens to kill them but then is stabbed in the back by ramses. gets martyred during his prime 40’s.

    Ramses would off him. have the avatars body surrounded by undead his animus going to be absorbed.
    a lich preventing him from dispersing off plane.

    Ramses would get back to exador. who would ask him why he went psycho on a random avatar which he would reply “plot armor”
    then Talarius would blow the horn vaporizing the undead. one of the D’orcs would land on and crush the lich.

    allowing plot avatar to ascend to tierhallon.

    “plot armor saved him again” Ramses said.

    then the doom boxes would play.

    this would allow you to show some of the time warriors abilities before book 4.

    about that last bit with the spy
    What about the other avatars of tiernon which helped him kill off Orcus pretty sure it said that sentir fallon bought several other avatars with him. he would have help with masking Excrathadorus Mortis.
    also he would have to tell them about the plan with the undead eating animus.

    also Excrathadorus Mortis has exador’s name in it.
    also it reminds me a bit of Matrim Cauthon’s dagger.

    also some questions.

    jacque sparrow was he from a mana rich world?
    maybe romdan?
    since it says some where in the book that the gods remake their favorite time periods on each of their worlds.
    may be pirates of the Caribbean happened on romdan.

    will the black pearl show up?

    “Indeed.” Darg-Krallnom said. “However, we need the bodies to
    fully man Doom and bring mana levels up to where we can open the
    “So are we the first?” Targh asked.
    Darg-Krallnom nodded. “As planned.”

    since targh said are we the first i woulsd assume tthat there are other mount doom’s with d’orcs.
    reason they didn’t return? standing orders to guard the Doomalogues.

    definition 2 of standing order.
    a military order or ruling that is retained irrespective of changing conditions.

    like orcus dying. it would explain why the nysegard d’orcs did not return to mount doom.

    Were some of the D’orc souls shoved in one of those Vergian Time Stasis traps or anima jars.

    do the elven gods have less mana over all since elves tend to have a lower birth rate.

    it would explain why they tend to use undead. they capture the souls of humans and convert them to mana.
    with the undeads help. it would be a reason to capture the d’orc’s souls so the elves would use them as a mana source.
    this way would allow you to bring some of Orcus’ former followers back.
    its said in the body politic that Elves do not believe in souls in the human sense.

    they wouldn’t care for capturing the souls of their enemies and using them as fuel.

    have them be at the etterdam doom which would make tiernon see what the elves doing as an abomination.
    and this time not interfere in the forces of doom vs. El’adasir war.

    also why did some of the D’orcs not just not fly away.

    was the bubble just one way?

    did the elven gods supply the mana to keep up the bubble?

    and finally was Melissance a follower of sentir fallon.
    it would explain why she got cut off from tierhallon so fast.
    sentir being paranoid.
    also at this time he would have given talarius the dagger.

    and she would hate sentir fallon.

    also tentacle play =d>

    one more thing what happened to orcus’s former demon followers. he must have had some.

    sorry for the long ass post. fellow beta demons/readers.

    its because of the speak up post.


    There have been hints that various people have spies in the citadel. It could even be the same person…

    I’ll toss it into the mental salad that I shall sleep on overnight trying to figure out how to improve stuff in the last couple chapters.


    Great stuff!

    Going to go over in the morning!



    Can you rate these on a scale of 0 to 10

    0 Cut for space
    10 Cut for slowing down the plot/boring/unnecessary

    And in the case of higher numbers, maybe which it is slowing/boring/unnecessary


    So thinking more on this, and it’s tied to balancing many factors, “getting down and dirty” with the battle has these key problems for me.

    1) Before Doom arrives, I don’t have that many POV’s on the ground to observe down and dirty battle. I basically have Teragdor, I could add Rasmeth, and I could do Leighton soon.

    2) There is a real problem when dealing with super powered combatants in mass combat. I have to make it believable, but not overwhelming (or its a Cakewalk) so I need to balance big things on both sides.

    2b) What we sort of have here is symmetrical-asymetrical warfare. Both sides have some very big hitters that can do massive damage to little guys, (once Orcus shows up). Blood and guts is much easier to do for the guys in the trenches. Things like the battles for the Doomalogues are easier/going to be easier. This huge combat, with a bazillion little guys on both sides and potentially devastating hitters on both sides is much harder to believable balance.

    And to be honest, that’s a lot of what’s been holding me up on getting to this point: How to deal with symmetrically-asymmetric warfare.

    It is much easier to describe at a distance than up close and personal in a situation like this.


    [quote=Iume;5267]Also, the Inferno scenes unless it is actually going somewhere[/quote]

    Well, this is where it’s going in the next book(s)

    See Chapter 145: Citadel of Light: Battlements, An Hour Before Atunset

    This is all part of Talarius’ storyline and coming to terms with his past actions and those of the other Knights.


    [quote=The Author Guy;5282]I see that. Here are my concerns.
    The rule is->show it, don’t tell it. Except where it really has no story other than background

    However, if they are too distracting/don’t provide value? That’s a different question.

    Pretty much these two things. A bulk of the Inferno’s scenes are background to book 4.

    Also, I’m not saying make it be in the past. Just have them wander for a longer period of time in the Abyss before running into Melissance in book 4. You dictate how large a volume they can search and how quickly they can move. Slow them down, make them appear farther away from the courts, have them start searching in the wrong direction.

    By doing this you make the crew more weary after a fruitless search. Then, imagine when they run into Samwell after they start to head into the correct direction. Spirits lift, maybe they think they are getting closer. Then, a signal! Huzzah. Only… sudden letdown its Melissance. Then begin routing towards Doom.

    There is absolutely NOTHING in book 3 that says how long a time span has passed plot-wise for the Inferno crew. We only know because you tacked on a timestamp in the scene title and have that little, quickly forgotten and easy to erase intersection when Tom is informed that some people came knocking.


    [quote=The Author Guy;5299][quote=GameGraphix;5296]Why not have them turn up while TOM is in the big battle at Nysegard…..then you can progress their story from the end of bk 3 into the beginning of book 4[/quote]

    I think because if they show up during Nysegard, Arg-nargoloth won’t be so relaxed and might assume it’s part of a plot to take Tom down. During Nysegard, Doom is at full battlestations, paranoid of another crippling attack.

    As it is now, he sort of slaps them with the back of his hand telling them to bug off. A warning shot.

    However at red alert, he might hit them with a whole bunch of gravity canons to destroy them rather than take any risks.


    Arg-nargoloth is currently on Etterdam.


    I like the scenes as they are to be honest and think you should keep them in. I know it’s difficult with lots of characters but there’s nothing more annoying than when an author leaves a character out that someone likes.

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