The reactions of Ramses, Bess, and Exador

Welcome To Astlan Forums Into The Abyss The reactions of Ramses, Bess, and Exador

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    OK, so I guess I’m not going to be hitching a ride back to Astlan with him….


    [quote=Tizzy;1056]OK, so I guess I’m not going to be hitching a ride back to Astlan with him….


    Aren’t you telling his story to the author guy? So don’t you already know what happened when he returned to Astlan? Or did he not return yet in book II? o:)


    Yeah well surprise Tom’s sort of stuck in the Abyss for a while because he’s got this hostage that he really doesn’t want to just leave in the Abyss, and doesn’t dare take him back where he might escape or send out a distress signal to his god…so we’re killing a LOT of time here. You might have noticed, T-A-G is running a bit behind on book 2, that’s because I’m stuck in the Abyss and can’t find out what others are doing to narrate it.

    And I’m also live blogging stuff.

    When the others try and tell you that I’m talking to myself? I am actually either narrating to T-A-G or talking to you guys on this forum.


    Oh! It seems book 2 would be soooo boring.


    For me at least.

    Apparently there’s some sort of army of angels running rampage over the surface of Astlan or something.

    Don’t know anything about it though.

    I’m just sitting here, bored, flossing my teeth with some of strands of fiberglass from my couch.


    Wowed, Mowed (over)…only a small difference I’m sure…

    Angels tend to be just as blood thirsty and murderous as demons, they’ve just got a lot better PR, so everyone thinks they are the good guys, we have really bad PR and so are the evil lunatics!


    I can certainly get on board with that idea.

    However, I will be standing on a rubber mat a couple hundred feet from a large metal pole, while boarding.


    Also why would be angels that vicious? Or is it all only of your jealousy, they being admired and worshiped and all. Is this one of those ‘not to be believed’ part?


    [quote=Rosver;1084]That seems to confirm that demons and gods are just the same. It just that they hide in the front of the Good.[/quote]

    I disagree. It is not only the PR but also the organization. Demons are very feudal. You don’t owe any loyalties to anyone except your lord, if even that. You don’t dare cross a prince or anything, but you don’t feel a purpose. The demon culture is to value strength and enriching yourself with no higher ideals.

    Gods on the other hand seem to have a very central organization. Think of the Catholic Church. They have a formal chain of command and a mission. It is the job of those who are lower to serve the cause for the greater glory of their God. Gods also appear to get mana from their subjects which help them maintain overwhelming power over most in their organization.

    To put it another way. Exador and Ramses both have a strong power base with many demons who would fight for them. If Ramses decides to declare war on Exador, his demons would follow him into battle. Likely out of fear of Ramses.

    If an Archangel A decided to wage war on Archangel B, those who follow A would think he had lost his mind. No one would follow him because the god is the one who appointed B and any grievance should be filed with said god.

    Obviously, such things would not be perfect and if infighting does break out, it would make a god look extremely weak, and given that if is the god providing them their mana, it would likely result in immediate defeat (not necessarily immediate death, gods can be cruel).


    That sounds logical to me, and that’s what my limited experience with the deific ones implies.



    What your describing is just an assumption and completely baseless. There is nothing actually in the book that describes astlanian god’s culture.

    But, it is said many times that Tizzy’s words can’t be trusted either.


    You are a bit wishy washy.


    Basically, I’d agree, but we’ll see a lot more of this in the Heavenly Horde or whatever it’s called. Host, Horde, tomatO, tomAHto

    I do have to take exception to the powerful demons ignore lesser demons part of your argument.

    If you think that’s true, then I’m going to have you go explain that to some demon princes I know….they apparently haven’t been playing by your rules, so if you could stop by one of their palaces and set them straight, I’d be much obliged.


    @Mauo: I have studied stories/myth from various religion and I can say this:

    As for god or evil, many gods, especially the pagan ones aren’t really good or evil. Often time they are just nossy and obnoxious. Though, for most, the gods are often just neutral. In many mythologies these gods are some sort of means of understanding the natural world, like thunder god to explain why the weather just suddenly become god (the god is angry or something), or the sea god sending a storm because it is displeased (very much like the story of Jonah). Basicaly these gods are means to explain natural phenomenons and many gods stay just that and often doesn’t intervene much with humans.

    Angels is very rare in mythologies. It is most recognized in Christian and Muslim but many ‘pagan’ religions has no concept of angels. Angels also haven’t been described clearly in any religious literature. The image of the angel we see now (winged humans) could not be found in the Bible.

    What you described as demonic culture is also fitingly describes many pagan gods. The Roman gods for example almost matches the descriptions perfectly. With Zues being a central figure and other gods often working independently from each other, and lesser gods often are out of the picture.

    Astlanian angels and demons seems to work that way, though I think demons though have a lot of trust with each other. The large city (Court of Chaos) requires a lot of trust for it to be build and maintained (even though many demons are unrully), and a large amount of trust is required for the demons to live that close to earch other. If they don’t, then demons should be living solitarily (like bears or tigers) and would have fight when they come to view with each other.


    Well, I don’t disagree other than to say that for what demons do and don’t do to other demons, it various from demon to demon.

    At the lower ranks though, there does tend to be a lot of camaraderie and shared misery, accursed masters are a pain, no point in adding to it.

    The big guys, well it’s all about them. They treat lesser demons much like nobles treat peasants…not worth the time to mess with unless they cause problems or can be useful for some scheme.

    As for gods and good vs evil…it’s all very relative. Again, I think these are just marketing terms coupled with various levels of narcissism.


    I emphasize [b]city[/b]. A [b]city[/b] requires a lot of trust in the population for it to stand. In the absense of trust would cause violent anarchy would issue (like say in the Los Angeles riots). You might as well see the city burning to the ground.

    Using fear punishment/death is not a very stable way to manage a city/empire. You can just look at history to see. This is especially more true, if the demons could actually just leave the city as Tizzy says. Leaving the city and live alone, or stay in the city and have your life be under the whim of the authorities… it is just a no brainer. LEAVE!

    Especially problematic in this situation if (ultimate) death is used. Demons have very low birthrate so if there is something that killing demons off, soon the number will greatly dwindle. If the number dwindle so much then the necessary manpower to maintain the city would not be achieved. This would cause the city to fail and become unlivable, even to demons.

    Another is that, there would always be rebelion if a population is ruled by fear. Sooner or later, someone would become foolish enough to retaliate. It will always not be overtly but covertly like say sabotage. This is a great inefficiency that a city is not likely to handle. Elevators keep breaking, buildings would collapse, the road would be covered in mountains of garbage and debri. And if the authorities are trigger happy to put others to death, demons would be constantly killed left and right. Demons would actually just decimate themselves.

    Also add the other sytems that requires or actually based its function in trust. Economy, the heart of every city, based its function on trust. Money, trading, businesses, ownership, capital, etc. required trust to have meaning. In the absense of trust, this systems is just busted. Law enforcement, City maintenance, Taxation, Utilities and others all requires trust to function. Scruffles and violence has come up because of these.

    It’s this necissity of trust a [b]city[/b] require, and seeing the the demon city is triving, that makes me conclude that Demons do trust each other a lot. Not as much as humans trust each other, but plenty enough so that a city of that size could actually be standing. Any less, and the dynamics would just be unrealistic. It would seem as if the city is maintaining itself instead of the demons (especially the lower ones) doing the job.

    Actually, it already seems unrealistic. The modern conviniences, the skyscrapers, the businesses… when it seems the whole demon population is rather narcissistic and hedonistic. I even wonders where Boggy get his money… or who is making the money in the first place. These things just requires cooperation and trust to create and maintain. Who is maintaning all these things anyway.

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