2015-06-12 at 16:06 #4035
Tom smiled. “[color=red]So then[/color] ( use “Even so” ), I want to try, however [color=red]futility[/color] ( use “futilely” ), to change a few of his crazy beliefs. Who knows, maybe he can then help convince others in his religion.”
Antefalken nodded as Tom was getting his point. Tom continued his observation, “The mana stream coming from the heavens, or [color=red]where ever[/color] ( use “wherever” ) was extremely purified; possibly flavored you might even say.”
He was getting a very sick feeling from this conversation, beyond the feeling of indigestion and (insert “of”) being too wired ( insert “that” ) he had been dealing with.2015-06-15 at 22:06 #4039
Antefalken does fall pretty fast into Tom’s camp. Probably too fast. Hmmm2015-09-18 at 02:09 #4041JagoMember
The new version is much clearer, on the ontological argument … however i am sort of left wondering why it’s there though … as in what it adds to the plot … not sure if this will work but i’d suggest adding it to version 2 and having it as a topic for discussion.
As I said, I like it well enough on its own however it seems like it might be too lecturing in tone unless it can tie into the plot/ conversation, be relevant to the storyline. perhaps he could have been destroyed and a comment could be made about the fact that being different in the Abyss can have consequences and that Tom needs to bear it in mind (lilith)… and that wishing and arguing for something don’t make it so (general unfairness of the situation), and that rationality and logic don’t always match reality (his doubt and questions).
on the text itself:
“Anselm, he was, or I suppose is, an Archdemon popular about 1700 years ago. He was probably the only religious demon ever.”
was or is? – if is, then why say “he was” in the following sentence; if was, then why did he disappear.
also does he need to be an Archdemon – he could simply be remembered as a lesson in not pissing everyone off – facing up to “reality” (pantheon of gods)
just thoughts could be barking – however the explanation as it is is likely a page or more on the kindle …. and aside from the information one wonders why Antefalken good into so much depth.2020-06-02 at 15:18 #12012020-06-02 at 15:21 #4036JagoMember
83.1 I thought the Anselm demon bit, with the ontological argument, could use a little more work – i haven’t studied it for years but that paragraph seemed a little unclear, i admit its one of the more bizarre arguments for he existence of god …however i think it could have been expressed more elegantly
from wikipedia ” Anselm defined God as “that than which nothing greater can be conceived”, and argued that this being must exist in the mind; even in the mind of the person who denies the existence of God. He suggested that, if the greatest possible being exists in the mind, it must also exist in reality. If it only exists in the mind, then an even greater being must be possible … Therefore, this greatest possible being must exist in reality.”
I liked the idea of using Anselm and the ontological argument it in principle – but think the execution could use some work.
Another possible solution would be not to detail the ontological argument… just reference it2020-06-02 at 15:21 #4037
Reread, agree now, pretty sure I agreed when I wrote it but put it down for “work on it” and it slipped through the cracks
Great catch!2020-06-02 at 15:21 #4038
I’ve been rereading this scene for a while now, I keep thinking the way Antefalken and Tom was interacting is wrong. Antefalken believes Tom to be a powerful Archdemon who might be posing as a new fourth order demon for some diabolical plan (refer to Damien’s conversation with Antefalken after Tom and co. came back from the Abyss after picking up Rupert after he died for the first time). Tom also comes out rather naive the way he talks back which doesn’t jibe with his powerful demon image who’s supposedly a few hundred years old – he should have known better.
It might make sense if it was Boggy doing the teaching since he knows the truth, only problem would be Boggy not knowing about Tom’s stealing mana from the heavens part unless someone told him. Maybe Tizzy would work since he was there and all, although him speaking so coherently for such a long time would be weird.2020-06-02 at 15:21 #4040
Here is a reworking of the Anselm argument.
Still working on the relative interaction level.
[quote]“Anselm, he was, or I suppose is, an Archdemon popular about 1700 years ago. He was probably the only religious demon ever. He was also a masterful logistician who provided to his followers a logical proof that basically required the belief in the existence of a ‘one true god’ of which, nothing greater than could be conceived of.” Antefalken said.
Tom grinned. “I think I’ve heard of such a being.”
“Indubitably, the omniscient, omnipotent single creator god.” Antefalken agreed. “Not a preferred concept on the Outer Planes. “ Antefalken raised his arms in an amused shrug, “Go figure?”
Antefalken sighed and then continued. “In essence, Anselm argued that as a mental exercise, if one could comprehend or conceive of a being of such infinite magnitude that it was the best and ‘mostest’ of everything, that it had every virtue, power and grace conceivable, such that no being could possibly be greater, then the existence of such a being in the physical world must be true, and one could not possibly deny such an existence.”
Tom shook his head. “That doesn’t make sense.”
Antefalken smiled. “His construct was to have one conceive of a being so vast, so omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent that one could not possibly imagine anything greater than that construct existing. This is because if you came up with some other property that a being could possess that would make it greater than your concept being, on any front, then the concept being would automatically possess it, in order to become the greatest thing you could conceive of” Tom shook his head again still not following.
“Here is the clincher, existence, actual physical existence of something is and must be a higher state of being, it must be greater than the simple concept of such a thing.” Antefalken looked him in the eye, “The existence of something is greater than the concept of the same thing. It is more real.” Antefalken said.
“Yes. I agree,” Tom said.
“So if your imaginary being was actually real, tangible, then it would be greater than your imaginary being. Yes?”
“Yes.” Tom said starting to see where this was going.
“Thus if you took your imaginary being, of which nothing greater than which could be conceived, and it actually were physically real, that real being would be greater than the imaginary being that wasn’t real. Thus in order to complete your imaginary construct, your imaginary being must be real. Because true reality is greater than a mental construct. Thus you must believe that your mental construct is real in order to be the greatest thing you can conceive of. Thus if you can believe in such a being, then you must believe it exists in order to be logically consistent with yourself.” Antefalken smiled brightly at Tom as the demon tried to digest this mental bender.
“So,” Antefalken summed up, “Anselm held that if a sentient being could go through this exercise of conceiving of such a being, they had to believe in its existence. Therefore, one would also have to believe that there were no greater gods than this single god. That all other gods were simply false gods.”
Antefalken laughed. “As you can imagine, he wasn’t too popular among the priests of any religion.”
[/quote]2020-06-02 at 15:21 #4042
Yeah that was my thought as I was rewriting. Before it was a neat quick point, that probably wasn’t clear to most people.
But by really explaining it, it takes longer and you start to lose the context of why. It’s just not easy to actually explain it to people quickly.
It might be better as a quick reference for those that know.
St. Anselm ended up in the Abyss as a demon. He quickly gained a following and with his mind, became quite powerful. After being hounded for a long time, he rather disappeared…which explains the was/is thing.
Turns out a lot of famous people ended up there.
I’ve mentioned elsewhere that Ramses the Damned (and all the Ramses line that were Anilords) was the same Ramses that lost his army in the Red Sea pursuing Moses and his people.
If you look in the history, there are others.
Archdemon Sokrats who subverted youth.
Archdemon Iscariot who subverted the Council of Magi using pieces of silver.
And there is an Anilord Ponchas who’s name is also a bit odd. He’s got descendants with the same names as well.
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