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Thanks for the feedback. Overall, not sure I disagree but…
Ruiden becomes more instrumental in Book 3, once he’s in the Abyss with Talarius.
Exador’s and the triad’s part is moved up and should be more obviously important, thanks to Ruiden and Exador’s exposure.
I am not quite sure what you think I should do, Rosver? a complete restart with a completely different story?
[i]What would make it that much better?[/i]I get cutting down some stuff to speed it up. But from what I am hearing that would not be enough to make it “zing” I need more concrete suggestions, because I am at something of a loss given the constraints of begining end and the other volumes.
Asmeth parts are marked now as Asmeth, because I may still take them out. They do not change anything in the other stories so could go. But does that speed it up enough. If it improves the story, I will take them out. If it doesn’t make much difference, I would prefer to leave them in as I am trying to tell the story as much in chronological order as possible. I try not to ever flashback much before the previous few scenes, moving Asmeth to the next book is huge flashback.
But as far as saying, so and so doesn’t add to the story; I am uncertain of the validity of these arguments as I have always said, “Demons of Astlan” is one book, one story. It just has to be broken up. So saying so and so doesn’t add to the story is not really justifiable until you read the [b]entire[/b] story.
What do 70% of the characters add to the story in any one volume of A Song of Ice and Fire? Keeping in mind that each of my volumes is one half the length of a single GRRM book. So break everyone of those books in two and then judge the merits of the characters based on each half book.
If I were to make every character and scene relevant to what is in an individual volume, I would basically have to wait and publish the final Demons of Astlan in a single 2500 page book. Which was my very original plan.
So back to this; had to run to Starbucks.
OK, the real big problem that I cannot easily or maybe even possibly fix is that the overall story is in the “Epic” fantasy genre.
In almost every epic fantasy series, book 2 is the bummer book. By the dictates of the genre this almost has to be the case; it dates back to the trilogy and is clearly seen in LOTR; if you’ve read them; what do you remember of the Two Towers? I bet it is “Ehhh…” although that may be me.
Here is the thing (and this is purely in general):
First book is the setup, the revealing of the mystery/issue/quest. We are introduced to the protagonists and they are set with an epic task. Everything is new and wondrous and exciting.
Book Two though is where we have to get down to the brass tacks of setting up the “epic” part, expanding to show all the players in more detail, demonstrate their motives and significantly expand the world horizons of the protagonists. As such, it is always very much a “transition” book, and in some ways a proforma necessity with getting on with the rest of the story. It’s the first deep dive into the details and first true look at the difficulties.
Book Three (in a trilogy) is the battle, the conflict, the victory/failure
Book Three (in a multipart series) is the first battle, the resolution of the first of several quests (unless you are Robert Jordan–all bets are off then)
Book Four (if there is one) is the second quest/battle, possibly another expansion/transition book, like Book 2.
Book Five is either a final quest/conflict or the resolution or first half of the solving of the book 4 expanded quest/problem.
Rinse and repeat as needed/desired.
In short, the mechanics of epic fantasy make book 2’s a problem no matter who you are. It’s one of those things I have to deal with.
It’s the expansion of the story/world, the detailing of the complexity of the situation and the “full scoping” (hopefully) of the problem at hand.
Nothing is ever fully resolved in book 2 in a 3+ book series. And that is always the problem with Book 2.
I know…I am itching badly to start writing, I really want to continue, but if I don’t want to get too far ahead if I have to go back and make substantial changes.
In many ways the going back and updating the past with stuff that is inserted earlier is much MUCH harder than always moving forward.
You have to check everything everyone says to make sure it agrees with the new reality…and this reality shifting sort of distorts conversations because now people may know things they did not know of before…perhaps knowing the new reality would shift the tone and meaning of the conversation.
That’s the hard stuff to fix, because you have to rethink a lot of stuff, and rethinking is harder than thinking.
Back to the incubae succubae thing
The spelling you note surprised me; I had never seen them spelled that way. But technically that is the preferred dictionary spelling; however many online dictionaries allow my alternate spelling.
Somehow it got stuck in my head that way, probably in the 80’s. I thought it might have been a D&D spelling but I went back to the Source of Sources: the tome that Asmodeus himself reveres as the authority. Egary Gygax’s ADD Monster Manual, First Edition.
He spells it succubi.
Nargh.
So it was false latination of words as 7th and 8th graders are want to do.
Clearly there is only one way to solve this. I will roll a twenty sided die, behind my DM’s screen here, if I roll a natural 20, I get to keep my spelling. Anything else, I spell it your way.
OK, here I go.
[i][b]shake, shake,[/b] rattle, rattle, rattle, clink…[/i]
WOW! what do you know! I rolled a 20! Who’d a thunk it!
:-“
Hi,
So you’ve all read Book 2 now, at least beta 1 so you know where that is going.
Beta 2 added a few more possible options/clues but did not significantly change much (it just accelerated some things from later into Book 2)
There may be a beta 3, but unless we want a Christmas release…the story is going (supposedly) where you think it is.
And I say that because, as you noticed, the title The Heavenly Host was not/is not the obvious tell as to where the story was going. Clearly an army of angels and such would have made the series much shorter…so it was not a true indicator of what was going to happen.
And that’s OK, that was planned. The characters in the book obviously thought a Host was coming, and a Host was coming until Hilda upended things with her spying.
So the title for book 3, which will have a lot more armed conflict and general mayhem should point to what one would expect to happen in book 3. Although it might not.
So what are some of the things we see happening?
1) We have the D’Orcs reclaiming their birthright.
2) We have the Oorstemothians and the Rod getting in the Inferno and invading the Abyss, and probably torpedoing every demon that gets in their way.
3) If you have read Beta 2, [SPOILER]you know that Ruiden is likely to significantly alter the Talarius storyline, and maybe give us a rematch???[/SPOILER]
4) If you have read Beta 2, you know that [SPOILER]Exador has been exposed and plans to flatten Freehold[/SPOILER]
5) If you have read Beta 2, you know that [SPOILER]we have a big journey for Damien and Vaselle, and even bigger for some of the Orc Shamans.[/SPOILER]
6) If you have read Beta 2, you know that [SPOILER]Hilda has some ‘splaining to do'[/SPOILER]
7) If you have read Beta 2, you know that [SPOILER]The Djinn plan to hunt Exador down like a vermin, and that they now have access to the Abyss, thanks to Tamarin and Tom[/SPOILER]
8) If you have read Beta 2, you know that [SPOILER]Sammael has shown up, and he’s apparently trying to take a page from Hilda’s book and infiltrate Tom’s inner circle[/SPOILER]
9) Reggie is going to get a lot of action. And things are going to get interesting when his Accursed Mistress learns that he’s been partying with one of her gods.
10) And finally, if you have read Beta 2, you know that [SPOILER]The Council is likely to lose their property insurance, or at the least, have to pay much higher premiums[/SPOILER]So, I am looking for some suggestions for the title for book 3 and then we will all vote on the choices:
Here are some I have thought of (in no particular order):
+ “D’Orcness Rising”
+ “The Rising D’Orcness”
+ “The Rise of the D’Orcs”
+ “The Return of the D’Orcs”
+ “D’Orc Destiny”
+ “D’Orc Tides” (although then I will have to put the D’Orcs on a ship…that might be amusing)
+ “The D’Orcness Before the Dawn”
+ “D’Orc Skies”
+ “The Inferno”
+ “Dante’s Inferno”
+ “All Abyss Breaks Loose” (this could be book 4 or 5 as well)
+ “The Insurance Man Cometh”
+ “The Battle for the Book”
+ “The Return of the Rod” –this could apply to either the Rod (of Tiernon) or the Rod of Tommus
+ “(and) The Temple of Doom” as in The Demons of Astlan and The Temple of Doom
+ “The Doompire Strikes Back”
+ “Doom”
+ “Doom Messiah”
+ “Children of Doom” (This would be the Rupert Fer-Rog story)
+ “Demon Emperor of Doom”
+ “Heretics of Doom”
+ “Chapterhouse: Doom” [i] (Seriously??–I am losing it–has anyone actually read this one? I mean the Dune one.)[/i]Actually, [i]Heretics of Doom[/i] is a very interesting title on other levels…I just came up with it now as part of my Doom=Dune riff, but it is a cool book title. Not sure how applicable it is to the story, that title would probably shift the plot in an interesting direction.
As you can see, some are cheesier than others. So give me some suggestions!
T-A-G
I will be posting beta 2 Sunday night CDT
It will be located on the same page as beta 1. I might suggest waiting for that as it will address many of the previous Beta Demon Issues.
The link for it is in the forum
Beta Demons Only | The Heavenly Host | Latest Version of The Book
Here is the post with disclaimer and link: [url=http://www.astlan.net/Forum/tabid/388/g/posts/t/84/Disclaimer-and-Links#post2109] Latest Version[/url]
Hi,
Looking at your post, it says you are a Heavenly Host Beta Demon, so it may have kicked in after the post or something.
If you log out and back in, go to the forums, under Beta Demons Only, you should now see a forum called The Heavenly Host.
Under that there are a couple sub forums including “Latest Version.”
The latest version first topic has a link to download the book. You should get the Beta 2 version; the Initial version was the original first copy,
T-A-G
Beta 2 is released and is on the links page with the Beta 1 versions
[url=http://www.astlan.net/TheBooks/TheHeavenlyHostBeta.aspx]Download[/url]
OK, I know I said late Friday, but in my defense, my brain was so lost in the story at that point that I thought I was writing the post on Tuesday night rather than Wednesday night. So I thought I’d have one more day.
I have gone through the whole thing to the end, inserting, updating and editing. I now just need to write a new final chapter that takes place a bit after the beta 1 ending.
I will thus have beta 2 out on Sunday night…assuming no catastrophe…
T-A-G
Beta 2 is released.
Few notes; there are insertions both where obvious with chapter/section numbering and throughout the book.
I have worked to keep Chapter/Section numbering the same for beta purposes. Where I inserted a chapter I call it B of the previous chapter.
Same with section inserts. I think it will make sense when you see it. As a rule the A version is closer to original…but inline you should see the old section number strike-throughed.
This is where logical consistency checking is important. Reality has shifted! if things are no longer consistent or seem inconsistent, let me know.
Here is the [url=http://www.astlan.net/TheBooks/TheHeavenlyHostBeta.aspx]link.[/url]
Thanks
T-A-G
Super!
I will post a note about beta 2 in the status topic. I have now written, andded and updated everything but the very ending.
So Beta 2 will be coming on Sunday. I am going to be tied up tonight and will need to fend off a Minion attack tomorrow…
The redirection is what it does. I need to actually have it pop up a message but didn’t have time to figure out how to do that.
It takes a random amount of time for the click which adds you to the role on the site, to make it to the forum, I have no idea how long that takes, my guess is that it syncs at certain times of the day, but I haven’t figured out when.
However, I went through and forced the update in the forum.
You should be good now.
T-A-G
