Too far gone

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    Many possibilities, of course I don’t know for sure since I wasn’t in the room.

    But what I get from the discussions you’ve read (that I dictated to T-A-G, of course)

    [list][*] Tiernon wanted Orkus off the plane to prevent widespread destruction
    [*] One way would be to slay him locally, force him back to Doom, like what happened to Rupert when Talarius killed him.
    [*] Or just inflict too many losses on the D’Orcs have them all retreat
    [*] I am sure he did not expect Sentir Fallon to actually be able to permanently kill Orcus. I suspect it was presented as sort of an accident by Sentir Fallon “I found a power weapon that I thought could slay his material body and send him back to The Abyss, but it did more. My bad.

    But that is pure speculation since I was neither in Etterdam nor Tierhallon.


    2. Tiernon didn`t exactly like Orcus, he might have simply assumed that it was an assasination by the Alvar or a similar group and decided that he didn`t want to know more for personal deniability or so he didn`t have to take revenge for his murderd stepbrother. Assuming that it would be a massive loss of as the cultivators say face, if he knew who killed Orcus and didn`t do anything despite being used as a catspaw.
    [/quote]Just wanted to say, we do have text evidence that Tiernon liked Orcus (sworn oath brother or something)


    Tiernen’s mistakes around Orcus and Sentir are really serious and there has to be a price. Ditto with the actions against Bast’s pantheon. However, philosophically the five siblings are actually pretty closely aligned with both organizations. So you have what should be natural allies instead ending up as rather hostile to each other. And this hostility is found at all levels including followers, priests, avatars and gods. It is a mess that will be really hard to fix in any meaningful way — and it needs to be fix if Ragnarok has restarted.

    An apology is not going to work as it is not good enough. A groveling apology might be good enough for some, but is too damaging to the pride/ethos of the five siblings and would create more problems than it is worth through the shame it creates for that whole org.

    What will be required is sacrifice. Tiernen has to lay it on the line in some obvious/earth shattering way if he is both to deliver a meaningful apology to Tomus/Bast’s pantheon and have the impact on his pantheon (gods, avatars, worshipers) that he needs to have in order to make the alliance stick for the rest of Ragnarok. I suspect only his death will have the required impact on all parties — and the equivalent symmetry to actually be justice in the eyes of all parties. Remember Tiernen is the god of Justice who broke his oath to the god of Oaths. Payback must be a bitch in that scenario.


    I will say that we get a lot more of the backstory of what went on with Sentir Fallon and his relationship to Tiernon in Book 4 and why they have been more than willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

    I bring in Torean because his forces along with Tiernon’s were central in the campaign to conquer and wipe out the worshipers of the Nyjyr Ennead, Which is also something the two gods are rather oblivious to. And it’s related in the spaghetti sort of way all divine machinations are…

    The thing about these plots is that they go on for thousands of years and sometimes it gets very hard to see the forest for all the trees. When you have multiple intersecting conspiracies that are working for thousands of years, it’s very hard to spot them until they strike at you.

    To be fair, that’s exactly how we at Doom were caught off guard four thousand years ago. So, in that sense, we are not in a good position to throw stones at Tiernon or Torean’s houses.


    Corruption of church of Tiernon and his avatars


    I was just going through the final part of book 3 and was thinking that I can’t really see a way back for Tiernon and his church. Below is a list of problems/signs of corruption.

    1. [b]Will full ignorance[/b]. Are we really supposed to believe that Tiernon never felt the need to inspect the dagger that killed his stepbrother until after it has been turned? I know he said he had arcons inspect it but you would think he would want to inspect a weapon cable of basically killing a God (who as far as he knows also has access to a God pool equivalent)on the material planes.

    2. [b]Will full ignorance[/b] None of the arcons involved in freehold even looked at the dagger Tom reversed. When it gets out that it was an un-life dagger it must look bad.

    3. When Telerius or Tom tell Beragamos where he recovered the wand it will be obvious to them that Sentir Fallon must be in league with someone in the abyss.

    4. During Tom’s flashback to the final battle on Etterdam he mentions that Sentir Fallon is not the only avatar of Tiernon on scene. So in theory these other avatars are in on the conspiracy. They would of at the very least thought it was odd that Ocis and his D’Orcs were having their souls sucked by unlife somehow and just kept it quiet.

    5. Even if Tiernon tries to backtrack and get his avatars to lay off Doom, will they not all want to know why the vile dispicable demon that stole Tiernons holy mana is being let off the hook?

    There are probably other incidents that I can’t think of at the moment.


    Heh, heh, heh.

    Yes, everything thing you point out is generally true.

    The Church of Tiernon (and Torean) have been heavily compromised in Astlan (at least). I mean, heck, they once had and archdemon as the Vicar General of the Rod! That seems a bit corrupted….

    Take a look at the timeline here on [url=][size=7] the site[/size][/url].

    Some key things to keep in mind happen about a thousand years ago.

    They involve the end of Anilords, the death/defeat of Ramses the Damned, the Wizard Tisdale ([color=darkred][i][u]no relation, no relation, obviously, I would never slum it as a wizard![/u][/i][/color]) ,Vicar General Exador, the invasion of Natoor and Noajar (and the pain/suffering of the Nyjyr Ennead who want to destroy the 5 Siblings) and the Dark Apostle.

    And of course, while not listed on the timeline, one should keep in mind where Sentir Fallon was in all of this.

    Bess has remarked several times about what a fool Ramses is for not recognizing her as a goddess from Earth when he was Pharoah. Yet, she’s also hanging out with Exador, who was Vicar General of Tiernon right around the time the Rod and Rangers invaded the land of her worshipers and killed them.

    Is Exador also being played by Bess? or is she sort of blind to the exact timing of when Exador worked for the Church of Tiernon in Astlan.

    So yes, something very complicated is and has been going on…..

    The 5 Siblings are going to have their work cut out for them.

    Almost like there was a vengeful prophecy stalking them, but that would require a vengeful godlike being. Not sure where I can find one of those.


    Mhinternational, I think there are some flaws in your logic.

    1. The death of Orcus was Sentir’s first real move. Nothing he did before that was very obvious so he was considered by Tiernon to be a trusted associate who did a monumentally stupid act. This means that since Sentir really did a lot of work setting up the battlefield on Etterdam (remember “The Conspiracy” had been working for probably decades if not centuries towards the death of Orcus) and was highly trusted Tiernon had no real reason to question Sentir’s word on what happened. Plus, since the FoG were not cut off from the outer planes and all of the really damning actions happened either far away from the battlefield or after Orcus’ death then it is possible that the other avatars of Tiernon never realized what happened especially if they were told to leave the battlefield immediately after the Death (which since the forces of Tiernon were there to support the Alfar it is possible that could have happened after the main enemy had been killed). In addition, if Sentir, Aodh, and the rest of the Alfar avatars were using there powers to hide the nature of the Unlife on the battlefield (remember the Alfaric Pantheon was fully aware of what was going on) then it is entirely possible that the avatars of Tiernon were completely oblivious to what was truly happening on that battlefield.

    In all honesty, nothing that Tiernon and the Five Siblings have done or failed to do is not understandable when you consider the all pervasive flaw found in all aspects of Astlanian cultures. They never question whether their beliefs are correct or not. After all the Rod got involved in book 1, because they believed the paranoid delusions of Verigas. The Oorstemothian’s entire worldview is one big delusion, and do I need to say anything about the wizards.
    No, while they’re going to take a hit (especially Tiernon and Torean?), I doubt the Five Siblings are too far gone. Actually I think I maybe Seeing something myself about a possible future where Tiernon puts on his big boy pants and admits his mistakes and asks(or begs in the case of Bastet and her pantheon) for forgiveness and a chance to make amends. Whether this will happen is not clear, but it is one potential future.

    I could’ve added more to my arguments, but I’m worried that I’m going to run out of space.


    As i see it there are three Arguements, why Tiernons actions are at least understandable,
    1. Tiernon is a God and has Believers in many Universes, so like the CEO of a multinational Company he can`t watch everything. Thats why he has all those people working for him.
    2. Tiernon didn`t exactly like Orcus, he might have simply assumed that it was an assasination by the Alvar or a similar group and decided that he didn`t want to know more for personal deniability or so he didn`t have to take revenge for his murderd stepbrother. Assuming that it would be a massive loss of as the cultivators say face, if he knew who killed Orcus and didn`t do anything despite being used as a catspaw.
    3. Tiernon could have assumed Orcus death as part of a deeper game by Orcus himself, after all what would you believe more likely, that Sentir Fallon actually managed to murder Orcus, a Being of God level Powers or that Orcus faked his death for some reason? One could object, that Orcus lost a great number of his troops there, but to Tiernon these losses wouldn`t seem very important, since gods tend to see their servants as replacable. Especially the mortal ones.


    Also gods tend to do terrible things to each other Horus once accidentaly cut Isis Head of and she still forgave him. Anything not permanent seems to be forgiveable for gods


    Actually, the corruption of the Church may be even more complicated and far reaching, just because of the lacunas at the end of the last book seem to imply a divine vendetta of Olympian proportions.

    Tizzy mentioned that Danu used to be a part of the Etonian Pantheon (the Mother Goddess to the Pantheon) so that alone explains why (besides massive death and destruction on that plane) Tiernon would want a quick end to the conflict. Having his stepbrother and the only non-incarcerated parent figure and her other family fighting might not be good from a personal perspective.

    As for the corruption, if one were to assume that Dysnoma and her cohort had figured out what had happened to her mother quite a while ago and her plans were more complex and far reaching than was immediately apparent one can make all sorts of interesting and amusing assumptions.
    She would obviously not just want to take down Orcus but destroy what he built and who helped him build it.

    1. Since a few thousand years are not an issue for a Goddess, performing hit and run attacks as a precursor to actually setting up her brother to die would be logical, especially if said attacks aren’t obvious and can’t be traced back to her.

    2. Sing-kun was a known associate of Orcus, and part of his primary support structure. Arranging to have him trapped in some would not be immediately raise any red flags, since apparently this happened often. She just had to make sure it took for longer than usual. Having done so, she would have weakened Orcus’ support structure.

    3. Loki was another part of that structure. Loki was part of a pantheon that had a end-times mythology as part of its primary structure, as such, helping cause Ragnarok would have been an elegant way to get Loki off the playing field. I imagine Loki showing up on Etterdam would have unbalanced things a bit more in favor of Orcus.

    4. Giving Sentir Fallon the Frostmourne treatment from Warcraft (slightly modified of course) and relying on him to bless the weapon to hide her involvement is actually ingenius, especially since the corrupted dagger could then be further used to influence mortals and avatars alike.

    5. Hephaestus would be a phenominally hard deity to actually kill /inconvenience because he is in multiple pantheons and is the patron god of an entire species. But she could cause him pain by stripping his wife and her family, a family he likes a ton more than his own, of all their power and worshippers, so the predations of the Etonians make more sense, especially the coordination.

    6. Volund would actually just retreat into his mountain if he had no one who he cared to associated with around. As such, not much of a threat.

    7. The Etonians would be facing massive backlash over their avatars actions as well as their own, and them having to suddenly face the combined might of the gods of light, whether through a tribunal or whatever will most probably be uncomfortable for them, and probably weaken them on some level, making it easier for Dysnoma and her buddies to strike from the shadows.

    As said, fun and amusing assumptions.


    There are a couple of things I’ve thought of that might need to be considered in regards to Tiernon’s actions.

    1. The constraints of appearances. For everyone outside of the 5 siblings and the 9 wardens of Tartarus, Tiernon and Orcus were/are diametrically opposed forces so that would have limited His response to Orcus’s actions and death. (He basically said this to Beragamos or was it Torean)

    2. Beragamos mentions that it might be time for him to reincarnate because his responses to events have been suboptimal. Might it also be time for Tiernon to reincarnate as well? After all the best way to describe his actions for the last few millennia would definitely be suboptimal.


    I, of course, can wholly agree with your assessment.

    I am thinking involuntary cycling is definitely in order!

    As to the course of appearances, well that depends on the localverse. In Astlan, definitely, in Nysegard definitely not. Also in localverses with more Olympian influences, Orcus is still recognized as a god. In fact, on Tom’s Earth, he was still worshiped as a god after he was killed by Sentir Fallon, as recently as a thousand or so Earth years ago, certainly 1500 years ago. Same with Dis Pater.
    [SPOILER]More fun coming on that front! Tom is not going to be happy.[/SPOILER]
    He (even though dead) was eventually recognized as a demon on that Earth, but that was basically the demiurge’s people demonizing local gods and such. Although the Norse also had something to do with that…[I point out that Orcus was on Loki’s side during Ragnarok, so you can guess why they were demonizing him]

    But yes, in a large number of localverses where they both exist, they appear to be diametrically opposed.

    Also even within a localverse it can vary down to the planet level. I point out that Nysegard and Astlan are in the same localverse, just different planets orbiting different stars.

    And, it can also vary among the races.

    But this is very common for gods, a god might be evil to some people and good to others and depending on which pantheon they are working in.

    This is why, for example, we demons scoff at the idea of good and evil. It’s all just narcissism vs altruism. And the second, in my experience is just the absence of first.


    Well, they were brothers in law and “might be a spoiler/maybe you didn’t catch it” …

    …they did conspire to capture and lock up their shared parents together.

    And they were hiding this from other deities. Everyone thinks Aetherus and Eris just headed for the hills and disappeared…but nope they are sleeping and having unpleasant dreams.


    Ahhhh, if only things were so simple….bwah hah hah, there is even more afoot than meets the eye…..

    Things will be getting a wee bit more complicated than they are now.

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