Possible Major Changes
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In book 1 chapter 13 Boggy claims that demons regenerate after a fight in the abyss (That dragon story dragons start from scratch while demons start with the biggest part). in book 2 dunno which chapter they claim death in the abyss is a permanent story (excluding rebirth).
Comments probably useful until it is on Amazon.
I will at some point cut off major changes so I can send it to the editor (very late already) but if there are important things that can be done with out major rewrites that would undo editing, I can still do that. E.g. smaller inserts/deletes or issues that could be remedied retroactively.
Different SF worlds could use different technologies. I’d been leaning towards warp drives as that’s my regular preference; however, Star Gates would actually be more consistent with the magic worlds. They’d be tech variants of giant runic gateways and boom tunnels…hmmm…that would give me more sleestak wizard opportunities…
Hmm, maybe a mix, sort of like in the later seasons of the SG universe. Gates for travel to places someone has been before and FTL for exploratory ships and “dropping gates”
I have to say, I have always loved the idea of spaceships diving through stars to collect hydrogen. In SGU, I figured out very early, before the crew, what the ship was planning to do heading towards the star. So that’s a scene I’ve watched several times. Everyone preparing for death and then voila!
Thanks for the feedback.
Take a look at Beta 3 and tell me what you think; that changes the ending quite a bit.
See my comments on it, you don’t need to reread the whole thing, just the affected chapters/end that I mention.
A lot of people have brought up the introspection thing: not enough.
I have to say I’ve been very pleasantly surprised by this because while I like it, I’d thought it would be too much “navel gazing” for most.
So I will work to get more of that in as you suggest.
On the two dropped balls.
Yes, I know I dropped the ball with Vaselle. I was going to do a lot more, but Tom chickened out. That’s about the only way I can explain it. There are limits to what I can force the characters to do at any one point and he rather freaked; Vaselle got too personal too fast and it rather overwhelmed Tom. I.e. it just felt like it was too much for Tom to “handle” at that point in time. Which is why he curled back up into a ball.
In case it’s not obvious, I tend to get wrapped up in some of the characters and their anxieties.
Still pondering on what to do about that.
On the SF front. Yeah, I sort of dropped the ball there too because I felt it was going to drag me too far off topic. But on the PLUS side, I want to do a spin off starring Trig Bioblast and the OCSS (Oak Clan Star Ship) Skull Crusher, where Trig is the Assistant Shaman (Shaman are used for interstellar communication since their communication is not limited by the speed of light–think the Stargate Universe crystals used to communicate from the Destiny back to Earth)
Tom will show up in that and there will be crossover (but won’t require reading both).
I’m not sure if you’re still considering comments, but I just now finished reading the second beta version, and have some feedback. Maybe it’ll still be useful…
Firstly, external references are always welcome. I always laugh at the references like the one to Avatar (the movie) on page 230. And yes, making fun of the writers for that movie using “Unobtanium” is completely acceptable. The self-deprecating humor is good, too, but keep it to one or two references (as you’ve been doing). One that I recall was about ‘some crazy author coming up with the Abyssal landscape.’ Those are funny.
I had a moment of awed appreciation when you used ‘decimate’ correctly on page 149. – thank you. Also, the scene with Schwarzenfürze in chapter 102.4 was crude, but I just about died from laughter. So it was spot-on.
I’d liked the development of romance between Gastrope and Jenn, but I want a little more. The cloud-ship ride created an interesting contrast to the duplicity and violence we see in the Courts, etc. I think their relatively peaceful situation made the violence elsewhere stand out more. The introspection from both Jenn and Gastrope was perfect. Romance is archetypal – with everything else going on in the book, their romance will probably provide a good anchor/reference, making the fantastical elements seems even more fantastical (and thus even more awesome).
I want to know more about Vaselle. What is his motive? Why does he want to be a Warlock? We know that he opened up to Tom and there seemed to be some potential there for character development but it fizzled. I found myself wanting each next chapter to be an update on Vaselle. Maybe Vaselle and Tom need some time to get to know each other since Tom didn’t want to probe as much mentally. Maybe there’s a scene where they have a chat when Vaselle first gets to Mt. Doom. I like where that was going, but in the end Vaselle seemed to be just a glorified errand boy. Maybe we get some hints that he is more knowledgeable that he first seems. Or we get some flashbacks to his childhood.
Tom is an interesting situation. We saw him fall into these planes in the first book where he was pulled from one thing to another. In that book, Tom was very clearly the main character. Now, it seems like he’s just wandering. Sure, he conquers Mount Doom (which is fantastic word play, BTW), but I think the lack of introspection makes him seem like “just another guy” instead of the one, main character. For example, I think Tom should have revealed more knowledge of technology when they were going over Doom’s computer systems. It would have created an easy “in” for more of Tom’s introspection and tied us back to Tom-is-a-human-turned-demon.
Alluding to starships (and FTL!) and then not delivering is just cruel. It *almost* cancelled out the Avatar poke (sadly, poking fun at that movie is nearly impossible to cancel out). Tom needs to visit a space ship. The sheer ridiculousness of that (because magic, planes, demons, wizards, overly-bureaucratic nations, gods, and romance aren’t enough. lol), I think, is needed to keep the second book on par with the first in terms of shock factor. I’m not saying it needs a big chunk of the book. One chapter would probably be too much, but maybe they end up on a spaceship in order to get supplies to fix the computer equipment or something.
And “the book”. Definitely an OMG moment on the last page. It was perfect. But I had forgotten about ‘the book’. We need to hear Lenemare raging about trying to find the book more. Just dropping a couple more hints when we see Lenemare would be perfect. Of course, it was obvious by the end of the book that Tizzy wasn’t a crazy as we first though he was. That particular intrigue is pure genius.
// End Rant – sorry for the long comments; it’s late but I wanted to post my thoughts while they are fresh.
So I am debating the tech questions a lot with beta 4.
I’ve been talked into doing the battle with the KofC and am debating how much “big tech” can be brought online fast. You will see Ruiden/Talarius together, but that will only be the beginning of the “reuniting fun”
From first detection on radar we know from the no longer there non-battle battle, that they have a few hours before the invaders get on Doom’s magic grid.
With both Volund and Phaestus working with the tech D’Orcs they might be able to finish getting some heavy artillery online at some point. But what heavy artillery is it? Warp canons? (A.K.A. Gravity Guns), Photon Torpedoes? Blaster canons? Plasma canons?
Or maybe they can’t. There are some other options as well. Tom only barely tapped the power of Doom in the non-battle battle. For one thing, if you have lava eruptions on the battle field from secondary lava geysers, plus rain and mud and steam and lots of “blood/guts/animus spilling” during battle along with high emotions, you should be able to generate lots of mana (which is why battlefields in all worlds tend to be places of great magical power) This should give Tom a mana boost; Doom might even get to full production mode for the duration of the battle.
Plus, because this will be a rare opportunity to battle KofC; Talarius will want to be out there as will Phaestus’ wife Sekhmet. (He’s going to have to tell her about this opportunity, or else just not go home.
I’d recommend against Photon or Proton Torpedoes since they are technobabble from their respective canons (pun intended). But given what I’ve read so far, I’m sure you could work either torpedoes despite their well-known ties to Star Wars / Star Trek (or more probably because of it). So maybe I do recommend those.
I’ve seen Rail Guns thrown around Sci Fi from time to time, so maybe that’s an idea. I’ve seen gravity tech work when it’s been given sufficient background (See: Dragon’s Egg by Robert L. Forward), but other instances have seemed a little too convenient. My personal preference would be laser cannons like we see in Unending (Stargate SG-1 series finale) with the Azgard’s laser weapons. They aren’t glowing bullets; they’re actually lasers (which makes way more sense).
When Mt. Doom is on full power, Tom would able to go all-out on the battlefield and even send some of the mana to new followers. We already know that he’s very powerful. He could even channel much of that power to his comrades. The battle may not need the Sci Fi tech. But then again, the KofC are as powerful as the plot demands (as they should be), so maybe the Sci Fi tech is needed.
I realized why the Vaselle issue has been bugging me. We’re given snippets of his plot as we go through the book… like his involvement will be suddenly very important; he will be Tom’s minion. Tom will be forced to reconcile with the fact that Vaselle is bound to him in much the same way that he is bound to Lenemare, probably after Tom’s forced Vaselle to do something not entirely in line with Tom’s and Vaselle’s moral compasses – and at Vaselle’s expense. But then the D’Orcs take his place as a much larger, less personal horde of minions. So we never get that dialogue. Of course, that’s how I played it out in my mind. So I might just be SOL on that one.
Correct on all fronts. I am now going back and forth on the Tech.
The problem is numbers. Tom against a single big opponent is good; particularly on the home ground of Doom.
However, lots of knights could be a problem for him and the D’Orcs (who are technically evenly matched with what we think is coming for demons)
But it will be a combination of many things to start bringing up the full power of Doom. Actually, he could and might funnel mana to others, but he might also do other tricks. The problem he has is that he needs experience with Doom and what he can do. He hadn’t had enough time yet; and there is the challenge for Tom. Can he learn fast enough before getting his butt kicked?
On the Vaselle front; you are correct in your feelings and on Tom’s. See my recent discussion on one of these two “late beta” threads about Vaselle. Tom sort of freaked out about being on the “master end” he wasn’t sure about it, and then when Vaselle came in so strong and needy, it really freaked him out and he pulled back.
It was not where I intended, but it felt more like “Tom.” Vaselle is older by about a decade, and has some codependency issues and is a bit needy. It really felt like too much for Tom to handle immediately and upfront. He was just getting a grip on his own situation and problems and to have someone thrust their own problems/issues at him so strongly? It was too much. So he pulled back and then went off and curled up. The Orc shamans he can tell himself are less intimate connections. Of course, this is somewhat of a lie, because they are actually priests, which is potentially far more of the “crazy” he couldn’t handle with Vaselle.
So he will have to revisit Vaselle and then the shamans and followers and let the plot continue once he is more comfortable in his own skin.
[quote=The Author Guy;2695]
However, lots of knights could be a problem for him and the D’Orcs (who are technically evenly matched with what we think is coming for demons)[/Quote]I’m wondering if the mana harvesting function of Mount Doom Comes with an Lever?
Could it be increased? Could it be increased for an specific target? Multiple Targets? Was it sucide to attack Mount Doom back in the Day of Orcus, not because of the inhabitants, but because while you marched on it your mana got feeded into the defenses of Doom?[quote=The Author Guy;2695]But it will be a combination of many things to start bringing up the full power of Doom. Actually, he could and might funnel mana to others, but he might also do other tricks. The problem he has is that he needs experience with Doom and what he can do. He hadn’t had enough time yet; and there is the challenge for Tom. Can he learn fast enough before getting his butt kicked?[/Quote]For me, this goes back to the Djinn. Are they willing to share their memories (if they can). I assume they can only share something they know (no unlimited knowledge with unlimited wishes), but even then. They had for thousand of years an advisor in Mount Doom and may have more knowledge than that, depending on how their links work….
Yes, this is exactly why I am thinking tech may not be needed.
We start with the fact that the battle (in the rain, steam, lava geysers if Tom pops them open, mud, heat) will generate a lot of raw mana, but also, once they are on the network, the mana collection system could be ramped up to keep people from recharging and maybe ramped up to drain extra mana.
It probably can’t drain mana from people because that’s bound, but could it act as a spell damper? Sucking the mana out of spells and sort of deflating fireballs and causing lightning bolts to fizzle?
Possibly. As you point out, it’s a question of learning to do it.
The Djinn is a good theory; the problem is that while Djinn’s share information it isn’t automatic, they have to meet up and share individually but they can pass stuff on from djinn to djinn and it works better than books for collective memory of a culture. The problem is that as Crispin alludes to, as do the Grand Calyphs. Djinn are not immortal. They live longer than humans, longer than dwarves, but not as long as elves. They pretty much top out at about 1000 max. So there is no one currently alive in Djinnistan who had been at Mount Doom. However, there should be Djinn who presumably have old shared memories that have been passed down.
On the other hand, however, the system was built by Phaestus and Volund. And they do know what it can do and they are both there.
Your conclusion about Orcucide is also one I reached as well. On the fully functional DoomNet, with Orcus present wielding the Wand of Orcus, he would basically be invincible and basically have godlike power.
He was taken down when he was off the DoomNet, most of the D’Orcs were off DoomNet and even then, Lillith had to gum up the works at Mount Doom so that Orcus could be defeated (probably with some Knights of Chaos).
That was the only way she was able to bring him down. Doom is 50+ thousands years old; and the Courts have known about it for about 25 thousand years or so. But Orcus and Lillith were adversaries long before that. So it took her a long time to figure out/get the opportunity to take him out.
@The Author Guy:
Well, hope you won’t have another Jess and Gastrope multipage boring travelogue again. Please, no more.
It also seems that you had big plans for Book 3 so it would be good right? Hope you do not succumb to sequelitis.
@EyeDeKay
Alliteration in titles have an added appeal but do not force it though.
it is also difficult make them without being nonsensical.
Also, nothing is wrong with non-alliterating titles.
By the way, the delete button beside the edit button is what you are looking for?
Hmm I wonder if after having his knights killed, will the aforementioned baron switch to Tom’s side after talking with lillith. What kind of powers will tom discover in book 3? Not questions I really want or need answers to as book 2 isn’t out yet but ideas for the future.
For the tittle I’d be cool if you cool stick with alliteration like the heavenly host.Well, that’s part of the problem as I expand, I can’t tell how much I am going to be able to fit in one book, given maximum dead tree size.
I am now getting so many lines that giving everyone time and in the right order becomes a bit difficult. And I need these other character story lines to drive the paranoia levels up to where more people start freaking out about Tom.
Tom is not really doing anything evil, but his wacky minions (Apostles) are tripping over themselves trying to do their things and trying to hide stuff (Gastrope’, Damien, Jenn are not revealing all they know) or just being too naive to see the consequences of their actions (Vaselle, Fer-Rog, Rupert, the orcs)
So to be honest, I don’t know all of what’s going to make it there, and probably won’t until the next beta, where you guys will start whacking away at stuff again.
I have to say, I’ve been extremely happy with all the help you guys have provided. It’s going to be an infinitely better book thanks to you guys. It will not be perfect for everyone, and probably not the best it could be if I had another 6 months or so…but it is much better now.
I assume the same will be true for 3; however, I am taking the advice from Book 2 beta and trying to avoid things that didn’t work in book 2.
I think Into Chaos lines nicely with the first book and I like the Infernal style.
Infernal Dealings?
Well, I think that the next book would have those chaos knights put into the mix so the better titles I come up with are:
-Into Chaos
-Chaos in the Abyss/Abyss in Chaos
-Chaotic Reign
-Chaotic Dealings
Also because it seems that things would go bang:
-Infernal Confrontation/Infernal Upheaval
Hmmm… ‘Apostles of Doom’ does not sound right to me because I think book 3 would not be about them.
You can add to the list.
It’s just that the other series I am working on, which is based in sort of a superhero world, the first novel is called Chaos Rising because it’s the start of a vigilante “hero” that the press call Captain Chaos. So Agent of Chaos makes a lot of sense for a title. If I put the pedal to the metal, I’d be done with book 1 (which is shorter than DoA) in about a month or two, but the editor is booked for a while, so I’ve put it on the back burner.
One reason I late added “Apostles of Doom” is because that covers: Vaselle, Rupert, Fer-Rog, the Shamans, Damien, Gastrope’, etc.
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