Plotlines

[The Author Guy]

Thanks for the long input, going to have to keep going back to these.

A lot of these plotlines are just starting, there’s the problem I mention in Fixing Big Issues that the book really needs to be twice as long.

A few notes.

Gadius an Gaius are two of the Knights working to rescue Talarius. Their story really gets going more in Book iii. These are the unicorn riding knights. One is blond/pale wears all white chainmail and rides a white unicorn, the other is Natooran (black) and wears all black and rides a black unicorn.

The elvish freakout starts at the end of book 2. They are very much freaking out, or going to be at the rise of the Orcs/D’Orcs. They are going to be principle antagonists to Tom, the D’Orcs and the Orcs.

The Nyjyr Ennead are the Egyptian gods plotting to steal the book as part of their plan to eventually remove the Etonians (Tiernon and friends) from Astlan.

The Orcs (Tal Gor) are going to help move the Abyss stuff back to Astlan in the run up to war with the Elves

Dante’s Inferno is a dark counterpoint to the Nimbus. It’s a ship designed to drill into the Abyss, or any other plane and server justice. They are planning to go into the Abyss, rescue Talarius and arrest (or kill) Tom. They are going to the Abyss in Book III. They will encounter demons of various parties and battle shall ensue.

Sentir Fallon, Aodh, Lilith teamed up and forged the dagger that Tom reversed. The soul stealing dagger that killed Orcus. Formed by antimus, it has been corrupting the Church and Talarius who was carrying it.

Sentir Fallon did this without the knowledge of Tiernon. Aodh…we don’t know what his God thinks of this, but it may have been tacit approval. Lilith wanted to get rid of her chief adversary/obstacle in the Abyss. Tom concerns them greatly because if he’s Orcus coming back, there is going to be hell to pay because he will come directly after them.

I am working to try and make this clearer in beta 2. The elvish issue in particular is getting spelled out.

[Rosver]

Major Plotlines

1)

The most well developed. This is about Hilda investigating the large drain of mana. It is all about the investigation.

One thing (and is related to the Lenamare issue I post sometime ago), since Hilda is investigating, she has to answer the ‘Who’ question. Strangely she didn’t try to get the demon’s name when she can easily get it from Trisfelt, or at least try to.

There is a terrible lack of interaction between the Host and Tom and other demons. While not bad per se, it did betrayed the expectations created by the book’s title.

It has its good points thoug. Hilda is one interesting character that she even outshines many of the original ones (like Jenn, Gastrope and Rupert)

2)

The easiest thing to do (and might be the best) would be to cut it out. This plotline is more of a clutter than anything relevant, especially when the purpose of the journey (aside from fleeing Freehold), which is to investigate about Bess, is not even done, which just makes whole journey pointless.

Other than that, you could just cut a lot of their travel (which is boring) and instead add in some ‘fluff’ instead like say Jenn worrying about Rupert, or Maelen talking about Edwyrd to Elrose, or them sharing stories with the inhabitants of the Grove. That would have been more interesting than all those turns in the roller coaster.

Also, you might instead put in the very reason why Jenn and company did the whole treck in the first place and that is to investigate the ruins of Bastet’s old temples. Please make them see even just one of those.

3)

This for me has the problem of lacking any strong conflict and tension even if it is the one major plotline of the whole book. You could even say that everything goes very easy for Tom. It seems like every possible enemy Tom might have (even Talarius who is with him) is giving him a lot of slack.

Secondary Plotlines

1)

This is one that has given me a lot of head scratching as it doesn’t make much sense. It didn’t even have a plot as most of the things that happen is just about them talking about something confusing. I actually forgot what they are doing in the book after I finished reading it.

2)

This one has lot of potential that is unused. Really, Vaselle is just ordered to do some shopping. I can’t also call this a plotline as plot is something it didn’t have.

3 a)

Hmmm… this plotline doesn’t really exist in book 2.

3 b)

Well, Exador laugh at Randolf’s face, the end. Not really exciting IMO.

4)

This one is very similar to Jenn and Gastrope’s trek as they are simply traveling and is even less relevant. This one plotline you can cut and the story would not be affected in my opinion.

5)

What adventures?

To me, this various scenes of Rupert actually just highlight how irrelevant Rupert became in the story. This ‘adventures’ is nothing more than Rupert trying to amuse himself.

6)

This is one plotline that is left hanging. We see the ship but since we don’t know what it do, or if it even works, we are left asking: What’s the big deal?

6.1)

They doesn’t really register much to me. Aside from becoming some sort of inferior replacement for Talarius, there isn’t much going on.

7)

Well, we are just being introduced to them. There isn’t much of a plot yet.

8)

This one is also just another introduction. You can’t really have much of an opinion when things barely even started.

Other things you missed. These plotlines seems to might have importance to the story but is otherwise undeveloped of left hanging in the end of the book.

1) The Djinns. Nothing much happened and developed but them having connection and interest in Astlan, they seem to be big players.

2) Lenamare and company. They plan to flee… that’s it.

3) Hilda vs the Guild of Beggars. It seems Hilda has make some enemies and is related in a lot of detail. Just can’t see how it relates to the overall story.

4) Jenn and Gastrope romance. Which is kinda lame. After all, Jenn vs Trevin and Nymphs? Pffft! Also there are those winged dudes. This one is a rather messy romance plotline. Still, them being rather important in book 1, this development does carry weight.

5) The Grove and the world. It seems that the Grove has isolated itself from the others but recent events seems to have force them to open and become another big player on the field.

6) Tiernon and his avatars, and the Rod and the Church of Tiernon. Very minor but it seem the avatar of Tiernon seems unhappy with the Rod and the Church. The avatars have become distrustful with their followers that they send Hilda instead of relying on them. This is a rather large crack on the organization.

7) Exador, Bess, Ramses and the Wizards of Freehold. The three demons have invaded Freehold and the wizards want some reparations. They also want to see if Exador is really an Archdemon. This plotline though doesn’t really get off.

[Anskier]

Grabbing some of Rosvers plotlines

[quote=Rosver;2374]Major Plotlines
Other things you missed. These plotlines seems to might have importance to the story but is otherwise undeveloped of left hanging in the end of the book.

1) The Djinns. Nothing much happened and developed but them having connection and interest in Astlan, they seem to be big players.

2) Lenamare and company. They plan to flee… that’s it.

3) Hilda vs the Guild of Beggars. It seems Hilda has make some enemies and is related in a lot of detail. Just can’t see how it relates to the overall story.

4) Jenn and Gastrope romance. Which is kinda lame. After all, Jenn vs Trevin and Nymphs? Pffft! Also there are those winged dudes. This one is a rather messy romance plotline. Still, them being rather important in book 1, this development does carry weight.

5) The Grove and the world. It seems that the Grove has isolated itself from the others but recent events seems to have force them to open and become another big player on the field.

6) Tiernon and his avatars, and the Rod and the Church of Tiernon. Very minor but it seem the avatar of Tiernon seems unhappy with the Rod and the Church. The avatars have become distrustful with their followers that they send Hilda instead of relying on them. This is a rather large crack on the organization.

7) Exador, Bess, Ramses and the Wizards of Freehold. The three demons have invaded Freehold and the wizards want some reparations. They also want to see if Exador is really an Archdemon. This plotline though doesn’t really get off.[/quote]

1) The Djinns felt disconnected from the rest of the story and the world. I feel like they were shoehorned in as none of the others big players or factions makes any notice or thought about them at all as far as I can recall.
2) I’m gonna have to disagree with Rosver here, I felt like running away if things got bad for them was a very in character plan for Lenamare and Co.
3) I like this, in fact I liked the Hilda parts best of the story.
4) Ok, but not great. One of the better parts of the grove sub plot, but that whole thing needs work.
5) I felt the grove itself was a ok idea, but again the whole plotline was dragging
6) I liked that the church was potentially coming to a schism in the foundations of their religion. While reading this I had the rather whimsical thought Tiernon might have been the concordant once upon a time.
7) Got to agree with Rosver here this part of just kinda of flopped. One of our own might be a Archdemon so lets do nothing and hope for the best? The greatest concentration of wizards in the world with numerous archmages and what appears to be the in story equivalent of Merlin? Much like the Archdemons they are way to passive.

[The Author Guy]

Hi,

I think everyone found 2 boring…working on that big time right now.

The gathering for the feast is long, I am trying to give a good introduction in particular to Tal Gor and the orcs’ perspectives. I think that will be more clear in beta 2. In Book 1, we got the demons’ side in demons vs wizards, I am trying to get people into the orcs’ side in Elves vs Orcs..

Great point on the interactivity with the D’Orcs.

[Netter]

Major Plotlines

1) Hilda & the Host

I liked how this plotline developed, but was left with only really one question. Why do the higher ups in the celestrial ranks still believe the Demons = Evil line? The Bess was shown to have known how demons are ‘created’, so why wouldnt the other gods and their servants? (leaving the demons = evil as just a line to throw at followers to keep them in line)

2) Gastrope’, Jenn, The Grove, The Nimbus

I disagree with the people that disliked this section, and have put in some comments regarding it. I think the two main things I would change is have something more happening in the first portion than ‘Jenn and Gastrope are moving’, and that the two groups (Tom and Jen) are a bit too unconcerned with their current (and as they see future prolonged) seperation.

3) Tom, the Abyss, Mount Doom

I think this went along fine, except for comments I made about the first half of the book being a little Tom empty.

Secondary Plotlines

1) Nyjyr Ennead (Gods on Uropia)

Was interesting, and enjoyed the inclusion of deities that werent pious jerks 😛 Will they figure out that their breeding stud is linked to Tom soon? Reggie doesnt seem like he can keep his mouth shut about anything.

2) Vaselle & Tom

This has a lot of potential, but one thing I was thinking is that after the link was established shouldnt Vaselle be noticing some changes, as isnt there more to being a warlock than answering to a demon.

3 a) Exador, Bess, Ramses & The Book

Progressed pretty much as I expected, and I cant think of anything they should have been trying to do or not do given the time passed in the book.

3 b) Randolf & Crispin (+Lenamare) vs Exador

Should there be more of a link between Crispin’s reporting and the djin knowing about Tom? Otherwise a nice link between the current goings on and the introduction of the djin. That and at least someone was suspicious of Exador.

4) The Rogues & Captain Asmeth

This is kind of disconnected from the rest of the story, and while they were the ones Lenamare hired to get the book, I dont see how they fit in currently on in the future. They need something more to connect them to events, or maybe be cut off into their own novella as a prequil to when they do get involved in the greater plots.

5) “The Adventures of Rupert & Fer Rog”

I disagree with people that didnt think this added anything. Rupert is a major character and is able to be himself for the first time in his life, and these very much have a ‘geting used to his own skin’ feel.

6) Oorstemoth & The Rod->Inferno

A logical progression, at least as much as either group uses logic 😛 All I can say is that I hope any politicians get taken out in the first battle.

6.1) Gadius and Gaius ??

I find that their individual sections had much the same disconnected feel as the Rogues. Other than their part in the joint Oorstemoth/Rod pending invasion, I dont see that they add much.

7) Sentir Fallon, Lilith and Aodh

Good for seeing some of the behind the scenes moves and history that has led to everything. Lilith’s attack seems a bit unprovoked though, given that she doesnt actually believe the reincarnation line. Should there be something more to provoke her, or DOES she actually believe the reincarnation bit?

8) The Elvish freak out will evolve from the Grove plotline.

Loving this for a personal reason. I have never liked the trend in fantasy for elves to always be in the right and perfect, so seeing them as stuck up racists that will probably get a beating in the future is a big plus.

[The Author Guy]

Actually, to be more clear.

If Sentir Fallon had realized/recognized the corrupting influence of the dagger, he would not have given it to a Rod member or anyone. He’d have hidden somewhere far far away and sealed off.

[The Author Guy]

[quote]I wonder how the safety features are handled in that ship. Could it be acquired/boarded?[/quote]

It’s basically a ‘flying’ submarine. Presumably, but not without casualties. What do you think the chances of capturing the Red October are? I keep seeing an Oorstemothian saying “it is time” from the conning tower. They then all start singing songs from Mount Doom.

I really liked that movie. :d/

[quote]So far we saw two bonded Djinns, both to rulers. Is that an coincident? [i] Etc.[/i][/quote]

I see it more like the TV series, these guys are emissaries/assistants/advisers. First role is as confidant/information source/advisor; yes technically they will obey orders (within their power) formulated as a wish; but there are limits/rules that are TBD as far as Tom is concerned; presumably Randolf knows them all. Typically the real advantage of djinns is knowledge. What one djinn knows, they all “can” know; not automatically etc but they can know; see Tamarin’s knowledge of the Council.

For me, wishes are very dangerous. As a DM from the last century, my general “wish” rule is, I am going to do everything in my power to make you regret a wish. Djinn’s don’t necessarily do this though. If they like you and are ‘in sync/agreement’ with the wish, you will get it; if you are are abusing it/things; they are going to interpret it how they please within the rules. So your best bet is to ensure the djinn is aligned/sympathetic to you.

“Bad avatar” depends on context. Aodh is a good alvaran avatar; but really not a nice person. Sentir Fallon is highly suspect and is the one known corrupted avatar. Beragamos, I think, is pretty legit. Everyone else is their own self and we have to see how they react. But by and large they will all (including SF) will do what they think is correct. Now, what correct IS, well…

I think you have a very critical point with Tizzy, the book and his spoken word. Good luck Lenny!

As far as Egyptians…could be corruption, not clear yet. They are working with archdemons, avoiding the princes and major court people. I would guess that they are not per se “anti-Lilith” but don’t want her involved. Whatever they think the book is, Lillith having it would be counter productive to their goals. (If she knows what it is/or what they think it is; she will want it for herself)

At the moment, they really just want to erase the Etonians (Tiernon and his siblings) from the multiverse and regain their rightful place. Or so it would seem.

[The Author Guy]

So, luckily I am working on stuff that should (I hope) address some of these last points

I am actually adding in more Rod stuff that I had cut before Beta 1 (actually they were notes of stuff not written) that will make the beggar stuff more relevant. It also compromises Hilda’s secrets and puts aspect of the church on to her.

I have also upgraded/moved up another character tied to Talarius and the Rod. This character is going to make life more hellish for Iskerus, Barabus, Hilda. It will probably impact Lenamare along the lines of previous suggestions from Rosver (you want the Rod after Lenamare? Well this isn’t exactly the Rod–but close to it)

I know I really need to up the Exador/Ramses/Bess plotline. Bess has her own plotline and that ties out to her friends and to Reggie and Hephaestus of course.

I know that the ball is seriously dropped in terms of the Council and Exador etal.

Of course, it is only dropped in the context of a book that covers 10 days. Councils like the Council of Wizardry are like businesses, or any group of people that have to make difficult decisions on what they feel is too little information. Trust me, I have sat through a LOT of meetings like theirs. People in such positions love to put off such things as long and as much as possible. So, technically it’s very realistic…however why start now with realism?

The Djinns are another group that are just now coming into play. Most people know nothing about them. That’s how they keep such a low profile, they watch and observe. They hate Exador, they hate Ramses to a lesser extent. They were big allies of Orcus, they also dislike Lilith and Tiernon and all “false gods”

Basically, what you are seeing here, clumsily, are the foundations of coalition building.

[Rosver]

@Anskier

I said “they plan to flee… that’s it” becuase that is what is there for his plotline. They just plan to run but nothing much about them later can be seen.

———-

I agree with Anskier about the Wizards’s reaction to the demonic invasion. It’s like after they feel the work is done after they succeeded in evicting the demons. They big lazy bums.

As for the Djinns, I think the problem here is that you are introducing a lot of new characters in a very short period. It is like being in a party where you are introduced to all the guest. What happens is that you won’t really know them or even remember them because you just can’t.

I think it would help if you introduce some of these character later, maybe in book three. Since these is a book, you don’t have to worry about presenting everything chronologicaly. You can present the characters much later when they could have appeared much earlier.

I think it would also help if you end the story at Tom acquiring the wand and gaining the aliance of the D’Orcs, as I suggested before. This would make you able to introduce the Djinns much later and give them proper space. This would also remove a lot of the events after Tom acquired the wand, like the hunt and shopping spree, and make space for all these characters that you introduced.

[The Author Guy]

No, that’s the arc of the entire book…Demons of Astlan….sort of…that’s his progression through the book. There is obviously a lot more going on.

Remember Demons of Astlan is a single book spread across multiple volumes.

Because Arg-nargoloth did not think Tizzy would manage to do it. All the demons needed to be sworn and “reconnected to Mount Doom” through their oath and links to Tom and the Rod of Tommus. And there were a few other parts of the prophecy as well involving the djinn. This is basically a celebratory ‘joint’ session.

Plus, the two of them do not “officially” get along.

[The Author Guy]

[Pathologic]

Well, i think we should wait for Beta 2. A lot of changes were suggested and we have no idea what will be changed and how, let alone how it will influence the reading flow. Especially the conflict with book 1 regarding true death in the abyss could force some major changes.

I tend to agree with Rosver that a lot of the side plot is unnecessary and should be cut out, particularly all those characters who are introduced in their own viewpoint but don’t add anything interesting to the story. (yes, i know they will be an addition in the next book, still they shouldn’t be in this one.)

One point my opinion seems to differ from the general one is the Hilda part. I don’t like the character. I’m not sure why, but i think it’s because she feels like pawn, she’s pretty passive and deferential towards the higher ranking host members.

[Anskier]

I’m gonna give a basic thumbs up and thumbs down system based on my personal impression and enjoyment with a brief snippet. (Kinda wish for thumbs up and down smileys lol)

1) Hilda & the Host
This was for me the most interesting part of the book, I like Hilda and the glimpses into the heavens

Thumbs up

2) Gastrope’, Jenn, The Grove, The Nimbus
This dragged and felt like not very much was accomplished, could have been a fraction of the size

Thumbs down

3) Tom, the Abyss, Mount Doom
I liked seeing Tom make progress and grow, though I though the party prep dragged to long

Thumbs up

Secondary Plotlines
1) Nyjyr Ennead (Gods on Uropia)
I all in all liked the glimpse of the gods conflict, but Bess felt a little bit jarring from the first book. Had a bit of a ret-con taste to it, not to severe but still noticeable

Thumbs up

2) Vaselle & Tom
Liked but only mildly, didn’t really do anything with it but get party supplies. Could have explored the affect of the link more.

Thumbs up

3 a) Exador, Bess, Ramses & The Book
I felt this dropped the ball, their reaction to Tom stealing was only mild surprise and for multi millennia old extremely cunning masterminds they were FAR to reactive and not nearly proactive enough. They came off as had no backup plans or contingency plans, you would expect this from Tom as he is only 16 but from them? They kinda came off as incompetent fumbling boobs, more three stooges then horseman of the apocalypse

Thumbs down

3 b) Randolf & Crispin (+Lenamare) vs Exador

I liked Randolf and how he played Lenamare, it felt very in character to me. However I felt they we playing the archdemon to easily (see above)

Thumbs up

4) The Rogues & Captain Asmeth
Seemed extraneous, wasn’t sure what this was about. Maybe the introduction for the Norse pantheon?

Thumbs down

5) “The Adventures of Rupert & Fer Rog”
I liked this but felt like it was a missed opportunity and could have been expanded a bit

Thumbs up

6) Oorstemoth & The Rod->Inferno
Liked the concept but the execution felt bizarrely too long and too short at the same time. I felt that going into the abyss should be kinda suicidal but it feels like a very in character kind of thing fanatics like the Oorstemoth & The Rod would try to do. So good on that.

What worries me is that you gonna send them into the abyss and they will start owning everything they run into when it should be the opposite. Either the demons are a threat or not, if so then going into the abyss should be a very high causality endeavor with very little return, if not 90% of the story makes no sense in my opinion.

Thumbs up with reservations for the future

6.1) Gadius and Gaius ??
Who? as you can see these two didn’t make a lot of impression

Thumbs down

7) Sentir Fallon, Lilith and Aodh
I liked it, the multi plane conspiracy was a definite good touch in my opinion

Thumbs up

8) The Elvish freak out will evolve from the Grove plotline,
I’m gonna have to go back and reread to see what you mean here, I think maybe tighten up the whole grove plotline

Maybe Thumbs down

[The Author Guy]

So looking at what to best work on I thought I’d explicitly bring up the various plotlines

Major Plotlines

1) Hilda & the Host
2) Gastrope’, Jenn, The Grove, The Nimbus
3) Tom, the Abyss, Mount Doom

Secondary Plotlines
1) Nyjyr Ennead (Gods on Uropia)
2) Vaselle & Tom
3 a) Exador, Bess, Ramses & The Book
3 b) Randolf & Crispin (+Lenamare) vs Exador
4) The Rogues & Captain Asmeth
5) “The Adventures of Rupert & Fer Rog”
6) Oorstemoth & The Rod->Inferno
6.1) Gadius and Gaius ??
7) Sentir Fallon, Lilith and Aodh
8) The Elvish freak out will evolve from the Grove plotline,

And maybe some more lesser ones that I am not so much thinking of.

So what are your thoughts on what needs improvement/removal/redoing?

Clearly, the Gastrope’, Jenn, The Grove needs work. Working on that now, but suggestions good.

I also not that The Rogues & Captain Asmeth are rather isolated and don’t add much at this point.

Other thoughts on various plotlines? Good or bad?

[Anskier]

[quote=The Author Guy;2379]Of course, it is only dropped in the context of a book that covers 10 days. Councils like the Council of Wizardry are like businesses, or any group of people that have to make difficult decisions on what they feel is too little information. Trust me, I have sat through a LOT of meetings like theirs. People in such positions love to put off such things as long and as much as possible. So, technically it’s very realistic…however why start now with realism?[/quote]

I have experienced a few of these myself and your right of course, but two things.

First the wizards are far more capable of individual action then the people who run these meetings generally are. So if they don’t like what is happening they, especially the archmages, are quite capable of breaking off individually or in small groups to pursue their own plans.

Second I have also noticed when the people who run these things suddenly have their asses on the line things get done, not usually smart things, or the right things, but something gets rammed through in short order so they can point and say they did their part. I would think that “hey Archdemons are coming to kill us and literally drag our screaming souls into hell” would light a large fire under a great many high level asses. That is not even taking into account Oorstemoth & The Rod.

If anything I would expect to see a hundred plans being desperately enacted and clashing and they each tried to get the others to help with each of their own obviously superior plans. I just don’t see them being so passive when their own asses are so obviously on the line. Other peoples yes, their own no.

[quote=The Author Guy;2379]The Djinns are another group that are just now coming into play. Most people know nothing about them. That’s how they keep such a low profile, they watch and observe. They hate Exador, they hate Ramses to a lesser extent. They were big allies of Orcus, they also dislike Lilith and Tiernon and all “false gods”[/quote]

Maybe have some of their motivations more demonstrated, they seem really disconnected and to be acting for little to no reason.

[Author]

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