Next Book Time Frame?

[Korwin]

Wizardry spells are optimized so it would seem hard to mess with them on the fly.
On the other hand, if someone is both an Animagus and Wizard and he knows the spell, it should be possible.

[The Author Guy]

Your first examples.

I don’t disagree with them. Certain things require concentration, a lot of them do. Not all things do. In particular, as I keep saying, some spells you have to concentrate on their entire duration. Others you do not.

Summoning a demon for the first time, and ideally any time, requires concentration. Once the demon is there and in wards, you don’t necessarily need to concentrate, at least if it’s behaving. Should the demon decide to try to break free of its bonds, a smart wizard would probably get back in the game, prepared to dump more mana into the spell. But they don’t have to. They could just trust that it’s strong enough and see what happens.

This is basically what was going on with Hortwell, he got lazy and wasn’t paying attention and was doing sloppy spell casting and was just sort of whipping wards up perfunctorily without being sure they’d hold his demon in.

Again…some things take concentration, some don’t. Some spells are set it and forget it, others are not. Depends on the spell.

Please recall when Jenn bound the guy in the forest. She put enough mana into the spell to hold the guy until people from the castle could get back.
She took the kids home, and left the guy, guards came back later to retrieve him.

As far as crafting. I’m not saying that it doesn’t take that much concentration, it does. What I’m saying is that by using magical tools and spells/process the level of concentration is not as insurmountable as you make it sound. What I’m saying is, yes they can make glass tables. Wizardry doesn’t remove all concentration, it just lessens it. Makes it doable.

A driver of a car does not have to worry about making sure the pistons are turning, or that gas is flowing into them, or any of the other details of what makes the car go. Same for flying carpets.

Hortwell: Yes, he was incredibly lucky. Recall though that he’s had this demon for decades, the sloppiness probably didn’t set in until much later, by which time Z had gotten to appreciate his accursed master. And, not all demons are outright bloody fiends, despite the bad press they get.

Yes, there is a lot in those early sections that should have been written better…but part of it is time…the longer things go unchallenged the more set in stone they become. There is a lot at the beginning of the book that I wanted to redo, but without sufficient critical feedback, you sort of get stuck in a hole and can’t see what needs to be done.

How should you not know about Thaumaturgy? Actually you really aren’t supposed to know that now, unless you’ve been around the multiverse in similar universes a lot. Hopefully I’ll do more on this later on. I’m really explaining the logic here behind what happens (in this forum), I don’t really expect everyone to get all the logic from just the first book. Once it’s done, and once people really know the universe, the logic should then be consistent.

Thaumaturgy is actually the most practical of disciplines. Thaumaturgists can always get jobs, they just aren’t super high paying jobs. People pay more for flashy stuff. Just like in our world. Companies making guns and tanks get more money than people making ropes and building houses etc.

For some odd reason, nobility are much more willing to pay up to blow up their foes than to rebuild things. Yes, building a fortress is good work for a thaumaturge…but they are then working along side carpenters and other craftsmen that nobles look down on.

Same with seeing the future, or having a flying carpet or magic mirror, or a magic suit of armor.

From a healing perspective, there is a lot of competition. Priests, Healers (Animages), Thaumaturgists and Druids even. The first two are often a bit more direct. Plus there is the “charity effect” You have to be pretty cold blooded to charge people in pain and suffering high fees. This sort of drives the prices down.

Thaumaturgy is earth magic, plant magic. It’s slower moving, longer lasting, but not flashy or exciting. Thaumaturgy is very powerful, and can last a long time with lower mana input, but it’s not fast. The perception of it among the populace is less awe-inspiring/impressive. Thus people assign less value to it…wrong…but that’s what happens.

[Rosver]

Well… concentration… from the book:

While Tom was being summoned:

“To the right, a middle-aged woman, lines of concentration etched on her brow.”

and later:

“OK, so it did put a strain on me; but, I did manage to maintain my pose and concentration, and not reveal my weakness to the demon.”

When the wizards is building the wards around the school:

“Now, the inner circle joined in, “All is contained by the Eleven Pentagrams of Power, now and forevermore.”  The voices and minds of the other wizards joined their brethren, “We are the Thirteen Who Control.  Our hands are the guiding force, our wills the pillars of power.”

Well Hortwell also was thinking about Lenamare’s point of view:

“…Lenamare felt that a good wizard should be able to command demons with essentially the strength of his own will and magic alone,…”

And when they are doing their evacuation Lenamare said:

“Only I possess the skill and the willpower necessary to cast and maintain the powerful illusions needed to fool Exador into thinking that we’re all still here.”

When Jehenna was summoning Tom, Jenn is quite aghast:

“Only Jehenna’s will and the ring would keep it from destroying them.”

There are plenty of others that echoes similar sentiments, while there is really no acknowledgement, at least directly, that certain spells doesn’t even need a thought or preparation to maintain.

—————–

Of course using these magical items doesn’t require much concentration. Crafting something however does require a lot of focus and concentration. I just can’t think how people could say create a doll house without even looking at what they are doing. There are just activities like crafts (crocheting, paper mache, glass working), arts (drawing, painting, sculpture) and others (driving, juggling, reading) that requires focus and concentration. When these tasks are combined with magic, the demand for focus actually increases. Even though these tasks might require less mana or so, the intricacies of the actions demands a lot of your concentration from the start, adding the necessary concentration required by the spell isn’t really easing anything mentally.

And well, there wasn’t really much about carpets in the book. Never know that they have autopilot feature albeit limited to just keeping the carpet hovering.

…and then, another bad analogy. A canoe floats, a carpet flies; and waves and winds are mechanically different. The closest water is to a wind would be currents, and currents by itself is unlikely to cause canoes to flip. And like currents, big winds is unlikely to flip over airborne objects though it would blow them away.

“Now some wizard spells do require much more interaction and concentration. Scrying spells in particular, some levitation and flying spells etc.”

This is all I was trying to say too about making books, glass making and such. If there are really spells for these, then they need the interaction and concentration you are talking about.

—————

Uhm… I guess you kinda confused the meaning of ‘craft’ that I was talking about. I was not talking about crafted objects, I was talking about the process of making them.

—————

About Hortwell: never had thought of that while I was reading the book. No explanation no anything that points to that conclusion. Should have been made clear so as not to result to wrong conclusions.

And damn! Hortwell is so lucky Zargoffelstan didn’t rip his guts as Boggy advised to as a means of testing. Of all demons available, Hortwell was able to acquire a good one like Z. Good for him.

As for Jenn. I think that passage should have been written better to make clear that she was talking about their sentimental value. The previous paragraph that talks about money really imprint that she was talking about monetary value at that time. The “but it was all she owned in the entire world” that end the sentence seems to reinforce the monetary instead of the sentimental element.

“if she was possession oriented”

I’m not saying that at all. And, after all, just because she is not possession oriented doesn’t mean that she won’t consider the monetary aspect of things. And duh! The quote was taken from a passage where she was mulling over her worldly possessions.

Also, how should I know that Thaumaturgy doesn’t generate that much money? Or that others generates more?

But then, why should it not generate much money? It seems to me that it is one of the most useful magic available. There should be lots of need for healers and menders, and the ability to manipulate earth is also quite a very useful ability with lots of applications.

[The Author Guy]

@Rosver

Not sure the book is trying to make that point on concentration.

Spells require concentration to cast, yes, just like a priest doing a ritual. Once it’s been cast, what happens depends on the spell and how it’s designed.

Some spells go off, boom, like a fireball, once the wizard launches the fireball from his/her hands it’s in flight and going and he/she can go onto the next thing as it arcs through the air towards its target.

Some like wards keep going until they run out of energy and they wizard can run around inside safe from outside interference.

Various wizard links and bindings are set, and pretty much stay in place drawing mana automatically from both ends to get what little power they need. Lenamare doesn’t have to think about the link to Tom.

Magic items don’t require “thinking” per se. Or at least not most of them. They do their thing. You do have to point them, and some like carpets need to be directed. But if you don’t “direct” a carpet to go somewhere it will just sit there at the height to which you drove it. Unless a big wind comes up and flips you over. In which case you probably do want to be paying attention to keep it from flipping over. Think of a canoe and a wave.

Now, that being said…some magic items do require concentration. Things like a wizard’s wand or staff. Now to be clear: There are magic wands and staffs that are “prestocked” with spells, and can be used by about anyone that knows the triggering mechanism (word, motion, thought, etc).

However what we call a “Wizard’s Staff” or a “Wizard’s Wand” is much more like Harry Potter in that it’s a focusing device. The wizard can focus and channel mana and spells through it. This makes it easier/faster/maybe less mana than doing the spell the normal way.

I have a section on Magic Items and Wizard’s Staves and wands. I need to clean it up and post it. I haven’t seen it since 1995…but it’s gotta be around somewhere.

Now some wizard spells do require much more interaction and concentration. Scrying spells in particular, some levitation and flying spells etc.
—
As to your “craft argument” the armor and sword are made by craftsmen as well, and to get good quality magic armor and weapons, you need to integrate the enchantment with the creation. I.e. you can’t just magic up any old sword, at least no better than I can magic up a plain mirror.

yes, I can use a mirror as a focal point for a scrying spell, and it’s better than say a bowl of water, etc….however: That’s a case where I have to really concentrate to make the mirror see things. A premade magic mirror doesn’t require much work.

Similar I can cast a “sharpness” spell on a normal sword and for the duration of the spell it will be extra sharp and deadly, but that’s for the duration of the spell. When I “craft” a magic sword and weave the magic in it, I am making it permanently magical.

Now, as a part of making magical swords, yes–special smiths use special super heated magical furnaces that can melt metals beyond that of a normal furnace. So the magical smiths use “magic item” tools to create their devices the same way a magical jeweler/glass maker makes a magic mirror

Actually, I think it will help a lot if I can dust off that magic item creation treatise and post it in the Library.

—
As to Hortwell? No, he expected his wards to protect him indefinitely against Zargoffelstan, they always had in the past. He always uses the same wards to keep his demon in.

The thing is, some long time back, he’d gotten the wards he used for Z wrong, Zargoffelstan didn’t escape, challenge or anything and so he just kept doing it wrong from that point on. Z could have escaped at any point on numerous previous occasions. He just didn’t because he likes Hortwell, as he basically explains in the book.

The very explicit purpose of this is to get Hortwell to start rethinking his opinion on the nature of demons. We’ll get back to this in Book 2.

In terms of “nothing of real value to Jenn” I think you are reading that overly literally. Jenn is not someone who is possession oriented, unlike many others in the book. To her, having “value” means true sentimental value. Not monetary value. Her attitude is that simple possessions, no matter the cost can be replaced. Keepsakes and things she holds dear, like her diary/gifts from friends and family, etc, and the people she cares about, that’s what has value for her.

She is not literally saying the things are cheap/disposable, she is saying that they are replaceable. She can’t replace her diary etc.

if she was possession oriented, she probably wouldn’t be focusing on Thaumaturgy…it’s can provide steady work, and a good living, but nothing like the flashier fields of study (Combat Magic e.g. Pyromancy etc, Sorcery/Scrying/Seeing tend to generate more money)

@Jonnyboi

Essentially. Wizardry is codified Animagic. They are studying ways to prepackage effects, channeling magic if you will and make it work more reliably and easier. Wizards can accomplish things far more complex than Animages. However it is structured, so within their limits and Animage is much more flexible and creative. Wizardry is more like engineering, Animagic is Art.

Q1

[quote]Modern Wizardry is like tech people today?[/quote]

I’m actually talking about magic items produced by wizards as being the true machinery, with operators.

Spells are really recipes with ingredients that focus, channel and direct the magic. The material components use elemental affiliations to assist the spells, or provide power/attributes, look at how Jenn breaks the rock in order to strengthen the bonds of her spell. The gestures and words direct and “trigger” the magic.

The Laws of Symmetry, Contagion, Synchronicity, the 3 Fold Law etc all play a part in this, as per most standard magical thinking on Earth.

Q2
Yes.
As a rule, usually…that’s the big point there are more wizards today then there ever were animages, the Laws of Wizardry and the accumulated knowledge and the academic system, the “standardization” all make it far more accessible.

I’m not sure I’d say sheer numbers, at least not alone. There were a lot of factors, not the least of which was internal fighting, discord, corruption, huge egos, and the rise of Wizardry allowing them to be outflanked. Wizards didn’t have to be as powerful as an animage to go one on one, add in more and better magic items….

Q3

Actually, that’s probably true. Although not super clear cut.

Wizardry is not as fast as animagic and if you aren’t prepared for what gets thrown at you, you could get hurt. (so defensiveness is preparation)

This is why, in fact there is this thing I keep calling Combat Magic, and Combat Mages. It’s not a separate discipline. It’s a style of doing magic, optimized for combat situations. You study what works best in a hurry, the heat of battle You learn rules, very much like chess. If someone does this, you counter with that.

If someone throws something at you that you don’t have a counter for, or that you have to revert to other, less combat optimized spells you can get your butt kicked.

Combat Magic is about knowing your opponent and being prepared for what they are likely to bring at you. It’s all in the preparation, having the right tools, components, spells memorized (reading out of a spell book during battle is a problem)

{and when I say spells memorized: I [b]do not mean like in D&D[/b] you don’t forget spells after you cast them. The more you cast them, the better you remember them–I only mean you remember what components you need, what gestures to make and when and what order and what words–do you remember the recipe and have the ingredients?}

So it’s all about who is fighting who.

There are a number of downsides to doing animagic. You really have to be creative on your feet, and you have to be powerful and have lots of mana because spells are optimized to use less mana and get energy from components. An animage is basically fueling things from their own reserves, or maybe what they can draw from others or from mana pools they have on them.

And then they have to know what to do/how to work the animus, mana and matter. So practice is key, experimentation is key, finding what works best for you. How to focus, what the best techniques are.

So long story short: it’s situational.

Theoretically you are right, practically eh…not so clear cut when the battle is spontaneous.

However, if you are able to get defenses setup in advance (e.g. Lenamare’s Pentacles? then you are pretty golden as a wizard) {of course those are patented by Lenamare–so if you haven’t paid your licensing fees then you will have to do many more smaller defenses and hope you cover all the bases}

The clear example is Tom vs Fiernon and his superior on board the Oorstemothian ship. They had all the advantages of wizardry, Tom had lots of imagination, creativity, mana and anger…(strong emotions can be very effective with animagic–detrimental in wizardry)

FYI in case it wasn’t clear, Fiernon, the first of the two super verbose Oorstemothian’s was the junior wizard on the ship that Tom sunk. he was the glowing light that Tom saw underwater, below the sinking boat.

Wylan, who is on this forum, is a senior agent that was sent in after Fiernon’s distress call/report.

[Jonnyboi]

Well, I’ve been gone for about 2 weeks and it seems like a lot of complicated stuff has been discussed.

Question 1:

So let me get this straight author guy, you’re saying that the difference between Animastery and modern wizardry is the way its done?

Modern Wizardry is like tech people today? a machine does a job and some tech people supervise it’s progress without too much hassle. then Animastery is like computer programming, you have to focus on every detail and concentrate on the development of the program.

One side is already predone (machines with the necessary programs) looked over by people who then send the products higher up to be processed into the next product and so forth. While one is more time consuming because it’s based on the human mind making it?

Question 2:
I assume Modern Wizardry is more adept at mass producing artifacts and mana wielders then Animastery. So shouldnt Modern Wizardy triumph over Animastery in sheer usability. The Anilords ruled Astlan for almost a thousand years right? does that mean they lost due to sheer numbers?

Question 3:
since modern wizardry is based on layers of work, like a foundation does that mean it’s better for defensive purposes, while animastery is quick so does that mean it’s better for offensive purposes.

[Rosver]

Hmm. Is that so? Still, the book seems to say that magic requires the user to concentrate everytime they use magic and while they are using magic as said by many of the users, that includes Tom, Lenamare, Jehanna, etc. I actually thought that was the reason why Zargoffelstan escaped his warding. It was because Hortwell loss concentration.

We also seem to be comparing apples to oranges. Bookmaking, weaving and glass-making is very different from swords, shields, armor and gates. The first are crafts while the later are equipments. Unless you have the Disney type magic where a wave of the wand makes the scissors, needles, pins, etc. to come alive, fly around and start sewing a beautiful gown by themselves; then you are still be going to focus your mind through all the dreadful stuff of sewing the gown stitch by stitch.

So even if magic makes things easier for wizards than for ordinary people, it should not be to the point where books, paper and pens (and other items) are ‘nothing of real value’ to someone like Jenn.

As for the carpet, even if it just hovers in place you are still flying. You are just flying it in place. Also the car analogy is bad. For one thing, if the car isn’t moving, you cease to drive. A more appropriate analogy would be a helicopter. You can make the helicopter just hover in place, but, unlike the car, you are still driving it. It might not use as much mental energy to keep the helicopter hovering, but you won’t start playing candy crush.

[Rosver]

Well, I was able to catch that little error the first time I read it. It might be because I have some knowledgable about books and bookmaking.

The amount of gold in Smaug’s room was just ridiculous. It might have been more of an artistic licence (an extreme one) than reality. The movie makers might just want to impress the audience with computer generated glitters, even if it is extremely absurd.

[quote]And thus…in Astlan, while gold is valuable, it’s not anywhere near as valuable as it really was. This is because it isn’t that valuable in fantasy worlds.[/quote]

But there are tales of these “golden fleece,” “golden apples,” “piles of gold” and what not is typical to fantasy fare.

Also even if gold isn’t really that valuable as you say, it is still valuable. It is still isn’t cheap.

Also my point is that Jenn uses an expensive decoration for something so wasteful even if gold is valuable but isn’t that valuable. No one for example would… say… wear tuxedo when farming, or install bulletproof glass on the garden shed windows.

——————

So the glass. As I just said, the problem is with mental concentration.

I made a comment to Tizzy about Astlan magic not really adapted to mass production. The reason is simple, Astlan magic requires a great deal of concentration. Even just using a wand, like when Jehanna paralyzes the horses, requires them to focus and concentrate.

I bring back your comment about using magic to essentiall photo copy/zerox the books pages. That isn’t really true. The difference? Concentration. No one could actually concentrate for very long because concentrating isn’t a very exhausting mental process. Sooner or later your mind would wander or get exhausted. That is my problem with these task as copying books, weaving, and making the large glass table. They just require immense and long periods of concentration if they are really done with magic.

Using a zerox machine to copy a 300 page book might just be boring, but concentrating on copying a 300 page book is damn mentally exhausting. It isn’t really that much different kind of mental task as copying the book by hand. Weaving is the same thing. So essentially with these tasks, the drudgery still exist and doesn’t actually change, which means, they aren’t really much of an improvement as to make anything that cheap as suggested by the book.

The glass table is a bit different. It also requires you to essentially concentrate on two task at once. The first task is to keep the glass liquid (by using a magic furnace) and the other task is to mold the liquid glass flat. And you know about multitasking, people just can’t do that. Maybe that can be resolved when there are actually two or more wizard who works on the glass. Do, there is also the problem of concentrating for the whole time the task is done.

Even with preconfigured spells and tools, the need for concentration is a great barrier for doing many task. At least with machines and automation, the mental drudgery is avoided, with magic it is required and actually multiplied in some task.

This is what I keep mentioning that you seem not to pay attention to. I repeat. The problem is with the mental concentration required for these magical tasks. Our mental concentration isn’t really very reliable. Even just doing meditiation is difficult.

So you must realize the problem of the molten glass not going balistic by just concentrating on it? How long could you hold it?

[Rosver]

Yeah. Tom seems to have those abilities. Tom seems to have an affinity to magic links being able to see, touch and even manipulate links mentaly. The possiblity that he could break demon links, change their structure and even take advantage of it is great. He already taken advantage of the links that the Rod’s priest have in his fight against them.

Your observation about wizards and animages seems to be insightful too. I always see the wizards with their need for ‘props’ (as Edwyrd describe it) to quite a hindrance. Animages might be more less extensive but their more freeforming magic and flexibility is a great advantage in a lot of situations.

[Tizzy]

Yep, I would agree with all the last several post/responses.

It’s hard to interfere with a spell (other than distracting the caster and getting him/her to screw up–definitely the best option). The spell itself is very optimized and tight, you’d definitely have to be an expert wizard and animage, and have prepared “tricks” for well known spells to be able to thwart them.

Link Mastery (animages) and Link Spells are very critical in anything requiring bindings and connections between objects and/or creatures.

In wizardry you don’t notice it as much other than for say familiar links, conjury etc, but that’s because it’s built into all the spells that need it.

Basically non-target spells don’t need links (e.g. fireball, lightning bolt—only for guidance so optional, gusts of wind, direct elemental work)

Back earlier, I don’t think I said Thaumaturgy is weak, it’s just perceived that way since it’s slow acting and not flashy. However, gravity isn’t exactly impressive either until you are Sandra Bullock floating off into outer space. Or the fact that it’s the only thing holding the universe, and the earth together.

Thaumaturgy has some real weakness in combat compared to most other disciplines (it takes a lot of time, mana and effort to generate an earthquake or summon a volcano…however if you’ve got the time and mana, about everything else starts to pale in comparison)

[Author]

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