Arad’s Plane of the Thirst for Knowledge

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  • #3664
    Arad an-Bás
    Member

    I am just a poor, wandering archival spirit, but now that I’ve found this place, I think I might take up residence for a while. It seems to be a great place to meet wise and ancient beings, such as the great Tisdale that I’ve heard of. Having had only been able to view the Astlan and Abyssal planes through the words of the great prophet T-A-G, I am forced to speculate on the unknowns and hopefully discuss them with those that have more direct knowledge. Speaking of the prophet, what god is he a prophet of? Obviously, he must be a prophet to know so much, if not an actual god himself, or at least an Avatar.

    Now, some of my ideas might seem fanciful, but please forgive that. Being an archivist spirit, I have seen many worlds, and many planes, and I sometimes confuse one for another.

    This may span a few topics, and I’m open to discussion of any sort. I really am interested in this universe and the denizens wherein.

    First of all, I have theories about Tom’s relationship with Rupert. I’d like to think that Tom really is Rupert’s father and, while I’m sure those of greater knowledge here will dissuade me from some of my ideas, I humbly submit my theory here.

    For one, the Prophet has mentioned Time Warriors. The title seems to indicate that they have some control over time. This would indicate that time travel could be possible. In which case Tom might not be Rupert’s father yet, but in the future travels back in time to er… meet Rupert’s mother, hopefully in his human form, as the practicality of Tom’s demon form with a human strains credulity, although would be interesting, for science. This theory obviously has some holes. For example, I wish to clarify if the Time Warriors can actually manipulate Time itself and, if not, can other beings.

    My other, and far more likely theory for Tom’s fatherhood of Rupert would be that Tom is actually an Archdemon (By the way, is it Archdemon or Archaedemon?), who has had his memory erased by some greater power (or did it himself) and he has actually been a demon for a lot longer than he currently thinks. I would think that it would be well within the means of a Demon Prince to manipulate memories of a lower demon, especially if it was willingly done. (21st Animage mastery?)

    The memory erased/modified theory has another branch in my mind. While I admit my grasp of Link Mastery is somewhat lacking, would it be possible, that Tom, being a powerful demon, managed to escape the Abyss, which somehow erased his memory and made him appear as a new, unbound demon, leaving him with only the memories of his life before becoming a demon, perhaps centuries before.

    If he was a demon before, it wouldn’t explain why none of the other demons recognized him. Could perhaps, when escaped the Abyss, have lost his original demon for, along with his memories, and been given a completely new form upon being summoned for the first time? Obviously this is all conjecture, but I wish to be instructed on the possible credibility of my thoughts.

    The other obvious thought I had was that of course, Rupert was the Concordenax reincarnated. I’m sure Tisdale would love that.

    Just a curious side note, is there any reason that wouldn’t be possible for Tom to open up a portal from/to the Courts of Chaos and invite all the demons to Astlan? I mean is there anything prohibiting it? As I see it, it would result in all of the demons being in Astlan of their own will and thus unable to be summoned, at least until they were destroyed.

    EDIT: [i]Very[/i] important question for Tizzy: Does Tom get laid in book 2? Because seriously, if you’re really his friend, you should help him in that regard. I don’t know, take him to a club in the Courts, hell, go buy a vestigial virgin from a street vendor if you have to. You gotta look out for friends. Maybe he’d have better luck with Bess than you… I don’t know but right now Tom’s sex life looks like this: ](*,) That might be inaccurate since I don’t seem him trying too much, but isn’t he a 16-year old boy at heart? As for Bess, the few times she sees him in book 1, she says she’s “impressed with his fighting skills” You’d definitely need fighting skills for her. Also, ‘“Oh, goody, round two!” Bess shouted with joy.’ could be applied in various circumstances. Foreshadowing, perhaps?

    #3702
    Rosver
    Member

    Wow, that is such a long long time ago.

    I have a very little skill in programming, all of it I learn in school. I still have interest in softwares but mostly in using them instead of programming one. Might try to pick it again though. It seems to be a very important skill to have nowdays.

    #3685
    Rosver
    Member

    Ahhh…

    I’m taking this at evolutionary standpoint. And from evolutionary standpoint pleasure and happiness isn’t a purpose. It is about survival. Eating, drinking, sleeping, playing, sex is all survival first pleasure second. I could actually say the same thing about eating and drinking for demons.

    Also, sex IS for procreation. You don’t need sex for intimacy and sharing… which is against the nature of demons. Nor do you need it for fun and pleasure. Just like eating is for nourishing, and drinking is for hydrating. Yes, they are pleasurable too, but they existence doesn’t come to be because of pleasure. There is an actual need for them. Take them away; say if humans can’t breed, eat or drink; and they would cease to exist. Not the same with demons. No eating? Just fine. No drinking? They won’t die from thirst. No sex? Who needs babies?

    In fact, indulging in them primarily for pleasure results to multiple of problems. Eating for pleasure causes various problems like being overweight, gout and malnourishment. Drinking? Common cause for traffic accidents. Sex is a bit more insidious. The most pressing is the spread of diseases like gonorrhea, syphilis and HIV/AIDS. The less acknowledged problem is infertility which is quite ironic.

    Also, I thought that demons don’t feel pain. That what you feel is just illusion. In fact, its quite difficult to make demons feel pain. You could hit a demon with a four by four and it would not even tickle. It really required great effort or special abilities to be able to hurn one of them, even to weak ones.

    Also how would booze and drugs affect demons? I mean, demons have very different physiology from other creatures. They don’t even have real body for Pete’s sake. Then how could booze and drugs even have effect? Don’t you think that just sounds absurd?

    @The Author Guy

    Well, when we first meet Antefalken, he stated that he is 753 years old. Chapter 33.

    @Tizzy

    Thanks. I’ll check it out.

    #3686
    Madfox11
    Member

    In all fairness Rosver, sex is a great way for demons to manipulate mortals 😉

    #3676
    Rosver
    Member

    Well, he is 700 years old. Still that does not illiminate the problem of the half demon parency and the pain it would cause.

    I wonder what excuse you will have for this clothing and other stuff that seems to remain unspoilt in the extreme heat of the Abyss. Though I note that there are many who wore clothes. Those typical street demons dressed in blue jeans and leather jackets? They are typical.

    Of course not to mention those silk and probably other fabric furnishings (curtains, table cloths, upholstery) and similar stuff (carpet, fur, paper).

    #3694
    Madfox11
    Member

    [quote=The Author Guy;1754]
    I’m not really aware of any video game bards…so I’m not going to include that. Oooh Guitar Hero meets World of Warcraft! Or Guitar Hero meets Diablo IV[/quote]

    The only video game bard (beyond from the D&D based games of course) I am aware of are from Dragon Age, were the difference between a bard and a minstrel is that bards are players in the Game, the political manouvering of the Orlesian nobility. In other words, they are a mix of entertainer/assassin/mostly spy for their noble patrons (if they are not young nobles them selves). They don’t have spells perse (it is a speciality of the rogue class), but can perform magical songs that boost the fighting capabilities of their companions.

    Personally I always stick to whatever definition the book gives a particular job name. For one thing, fantasy novels are rarely historically accurate and for another even historical accurate stuff has a tendency to change depending on the era selected or the time the story was written in RL or what ever source material the author chooses to use/belief.

    @TAG: D&D bards don’t have to have been at a particular event to have written balads about it, even if said balads are seens as historical accurate. Even if he was, how good is the memory of a demon anyway? Human memory is somewhat unreliable, and we don’t even have to deal with centuries. Is that of demons better? If so, by how much?

    #3698
    Tizzy
    Member

    1) Or maybe the bard will leave Oorstemoth…generally something fleeing prison are wont to do.
    2) :-k
    3) Not exactly…for more clues take a look at the map, go north from Freehold.

    Well, as far as games vs books in distorting reality. Counter Example books/stories: Xanth, Anything that has been told by Disney, Robert Asprin’s MythAdventures, Michael Moorcock’s Eternal Champion, etc.

    However, in the sense that I was writing the book and developing a game at the same time…there is a basis to your argument about a game. The book came first, then when a friend and I started developing our own RPG, I used Astlan as the world and codified the rules of the book into the game. So that’s more of a game based on a book than vice versa, and now that the game is defunct, there is less of a tie in.

    But, yes, overall the world is supposed to be a combination of fantasy books, fantasy RPG, and Video Games. So WoW, or table or online D&D, or Skyrim as well as movies Dragon Slayer (excellent classic fantasy btw—first movie from 1981), A Knight’s Tale, etc are all influences

    The world is my interpretation of a Fantasy Zeitgeist world.

    Actually, in Astlan, there are official bardic tradtions, which are sort of like schools or unions, and to be licensed by them you would need to be able to read.
    Obviously in some places there may be some self taught bards, but if you are ‘licensed’ or in a guild, you can read to some extent. This was less true a thousand years ago. Many bards can read multiple languages, and sing songs in them, even if they can’t necessarily have a conversation in them.

    #3687

    Sweet, thanks on the 753…I had a terrible time finding it again. Suspected he’d said it but couldn’t find the exact number.

    On the sex part, jumping in since Tizzy isn’t around. Assuming that the majority of demons were once adult humans, they would have known about the pleasures of sex and wanted to recreate it in their demonic life. And clearly, the summoners being fascinated by the dark side of sex and violence, which demons are the personifications of, they too would expect demons to be sex fiends. Notice the term “sex fiend” it’s not as theoretical as one might think.

    Sex and the temptation of sex is a huge part of human morality; in fact a cornerstone of it for many religions. If demons are all about corruption, sin, temptation and the darker passions of mankind, then demons are almost required by their very nature to be sexual beings, and in particular they represent unbridled sexuality with out the fear of pregnancy.

    Sex for anything other than procreation is a sin in many simpler religions (including the older catholic church teachings–and some today) thus demons must be all for it.

    You can’t expect a demon to be the poster child for lust and damnation, if they don’t practice it.

    But again,not all demons are that sexual.

    And, I have to say your discussions on other pleasures are practically foreshadowing a significant story line in book ii. (not sex per se–but your associated arguments) I.e. I actually have quite a bit to say about this in book ii–as I do with demons and sex regarding the Incubus.

    Of course on the other hand, reversing 180, I think the point you might be making Rosver is this: Tom doesn’t seem to have much interest in sex. Well maybe without a pressing need, and having no biological need to have sex, it just isn’t something he’s thinking about. No hormones, no real sex drive. Other demons, who’ve been around forever are seeking passions/diversions to spice things up. Tom’s life is spicy enough without such unnecessary distractions. I think that’s a valid point.

    #3699

    1) Or maybe the bard will leave Oorstemoth…generally something fleeing prison are wont to do.
    2) :-k
    3) Not exactly…for more clues take a look at the map, go north from Freehold.

    Well, as far as games vs books in distorting reality. Counter Example books/stories: Xanth, Anything that has been told by Disney, Robert Asprin’s MythAdventures, Michael Moorcock’s Eternal Champion, etc.

    However, in the sense that I was writing the book and developing a game at the same time…there is a basis to your argument about a game. The book came first, then when a friend and I started developing our own RPG, I used Astlan as the world and codified the rules of the book into the game. So that’s more of a game based on a book than vice versa, and now that the game is defunct, there is less of a tie in.

    But, yes, overall the world is supposed to be a combination of fantasy books, fantasy RPG, and Video Games. So WoW, or table or online D&D, or Skyrim as well as movies Dragon Slayer (excellent classic fantasy btw—first movie from 1981), A Knight’s Tale, etc are all influences

    The world is my interpretation of a Fantasy Zeitgeist world.

    Actually, in Astlan, there are official bardic tradtions, which are sort of like schools or unions, and to be licensed by them you would need to be able to read.
    Obviously in some places there may be some self taught bards, but if you are ‘licensed’ or in a guild, you can read to some extent. This was less true a thousand years ago. Many bards can read multiple languages, and sing songs in them, even if they can’t necessarily have a conversation in them.

    #3665
    Tizzy
    Member

    Ahh, what great thoughts!

    It was thinking exactly like that, that has brought me to the mental clarity I have today!

    Keep it up and I am sure after another thousand years, you and I will be able to have the only truly sane conversations in the multiverse.

    Many speculations there, and I shall allow others to speculate with you on many of those fronts.

    On the one front I can clearly note: The gateway from the Courts. Technically, there are other demons capable of doing demonic gateways. Certainly if Tom can do it, then an Arch Demon or Demon Prince(ss) should be able to. But they haven’t. There must be a reason.

    And that reason of course is that, that would be a demonic invasion and spark a huge war. And what they hey…what’s one more war at this point.

    The politics of such a thing are going to become more evident in Book 2, when we learn some more of the history and the “balance” of forces between the Abyss and the Outer Planes. Let’s just say that what happened in Etterdam was a lesson for all sides, and 4,000+ years later people will be remembering it in Book 2 and later…

    Also you will note if you read the writings of wizards in the library, they do have certain beliefs about the rules under which demons can come to Astlan. As we are seeing…these aren’t that accurate. There is, for example, widespread belief that the more powerful the demon the more mana/energy more complicated spell it takes to summon the demon. They’ve extrapolated, therefore that the mana required to summon an ArchDemon/Demon Prince is so great, it would be very hard for such a demon to show up in Astlan without people noticing the mana disturbance and that it is thus nearly impossible for anything larger than a greater demon to show up in Astlan (unannounced or on their own)

    Said higher powered demons feel something less than zero need to disabuse them of this. They like to be able to come and go unnoticed by pesky Kings, Wizards and Priests who might want to raise an army and start a war every time the demon lord stops by for a bite to eat.

    #1172
    Arad an-Bás
    Member

    Discussion

    #3666
    Madfox11
    Member

    [quote=Arad an-Bás;1626]First of all, I have theories about Tom’s relationship with Rupert. I’d like to think that Tom really is Rupert’s father and, while I’m sure those of greater knowledge here will dissuade me from some of my ideas, I humbly submit my theory here.
    [/quote]

    We could also speculate that Fate touched him (in other words: it is a bit cliche) and that he and Rupert actually have the same father and they are brothers 😉 Didn’t Tom’s father died in some kind of explosion?

    Mind you, it is much more likely that Rupert got a vague generic description from his mother, the type of description that fits the generic image. Since Tom’s shape is based on the ideas of his summoners, it is not surprising that fits that vague description as well. Since shapeshifting demons actually decide on their own form, Rupert simply took Tom’s shape subconsciously based on his hopes and dreams. Of course, such a mundane explanation is not really all that fun 😉

    #3667
    Tizzy
    Member

    Well, add to that you had Rupert a few floors down, or up, from the summoning chamber, busily wishing upon a star for the father of his dreams…

    However, that would probably be pushing it.

    #3671
    Tizzy
    Member

    I would have to believe such insecurities would be in his mind.

    Now, I don’t know, but given his rather “goody good” attitude, my bet is that Tom is a virgin.

    Now one could argue that a demoness is not the place for a virgin to start, but given that size issue and the shapeshifting concern, that would mean that a proportionately sized demoness would make the most sense for a first time. However, even a human sized demoness would be better for Edwyrd because if things suddenly double or more in size it wouldn’t kill the demoness.

    I have to suspect that killing your first sex partner by sudden expansion would be traumatic and might leave one with severe emotional issues.

    Unless one started with severe emotional issues to begin with.

    #3670
    Netter
    Member

    @Arad an-Bás

    Funnily enough, the ‘impracticality’ of Tom’s demon form with a human woman is actually something Im kind of hoping happens as part of Tom working out how different his life is now.

    He has been thrown around from situation to situation, and going from extremes of pretending to be ‘Big Evil Demon’, to pretending to still be human. He hasnt had much time to think about women or how his life will be now, but being a teenager his mind will go back there in time.

    Seeing as shapeshifting requires concentration, and nothing gets rid of concentration faster, I imagine an awkward fumbling moment followed by improvising.

    That or *pop goes the shapeshift*… and now they are stuck 😛

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