Thoughts caused by book 3 and a bunch of wags
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We have Apostles and Prophets of
upon . A prophet is a canonized apostle. We have (what is Orc Apostle?) and Oracles of Orcus upon Nysegard. Does that mean that someone like Tal Gor is the equivalent of an apostle and if D’Orced he would become an Oracle of Orcus upon Astlan?
Interesting how both are Oracle and Prophet, which mean roughly the same thing. Each foretells a future, presumably of what will happen as a result of the their god coming to fulfill the needs of people.
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Are Outer Planes infinite in size or is the size limited by the will of its owner? Some of the descriptions the outer planes make me wonder whether the Abyss was once an outer plane but was temporally locked during the Time Wars. Or whatever the fighting was called prior to the Concord of Conciliation being formed.
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If outer planes are a reflection of material planes what happens to a reflection based on a material plane that is destroyed?
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Tiernon did not detect Lilith sneaking into Tierhallon. Tizzy did not (presumably) detect Sentir Fallon sneaking into the Abyss when he visited Lilith.
It would seem that whether its ownership, age, experience, or some odd ability (I still say Tizzy was once the ruler of the Abyss) the ability to know if someone enters their domain is not infallible.
Therefore, what IS an outer plane and how does it work? Is Tierhallon the way it is simply because Tiernon is most powerful being in it or did he do something to stake a claim on control it?
Based on bk2 it is implied that an outer plane can “collapse” so it seems to be maintained by the will of its gods. Aetherus’s realm still exists though even without its god because (it is implied) the 5S are paying the upkeep.
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If a god is a god because of their god pool then could any demon collect worshipers, build a god pool, and become a god?
Maybe start by pretending to be a small shrine deity, collect mana from pilgrims, use demon abilities to fulfill prayers, and eventually have enough mana to create an outer plane or somehow stake a claim on an outer plane?
—If a demon goes an outer plane does it break the binding that ties them to the Abyss? Are they no longer tied to any plane or does the binding that automatically returns them to the Abyss re-establish itself upon re-entering a material plane?
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Does the Concord of Conciliation apply to gods who are not signatories? What about demons entering outer planes of non-signatories? Presumably the tribunal would simply says “tough luck”, but it does offer an opportunity for demons to enter an outer plane.
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If one is a god is it possible to setup a home in an outer plane without having worshipers? Or are worshipers a requirement?
Does an outer plane actually even exist without a god to inhabit it?
Can anyone control an outer plane so long as they have enough mana? Is that the primary reason for worshipers? To gather enough mana to claim it, shape it, and maintain it?
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Entropy. The material planes (and by extension the outer planes) are limited in their lifecycle, but are the elemental “planes” infinite in life?
How are localverses created? Is an infinite amount being born ever moment?
[quote=Iume;5440]We have Apostles and Prophets of
upon . A prophet is a canonized apostle. We have (what is Orc Apostle?) and Oracles of Orcus upon Nysegard. Does that mean that someone like Tal Gor is the equivalent of an apostle and if D’Orced he would become an Oracle of Orcus upon Astlan?
Interesting how both are Oracle and Prophet, which mean roughly the same thing. Each foretells a future, presumably of what will happen as a result of the their god coming to fulfill the needs of people.
[/quote]This is all religion specific in terms of the rules, so it varies a lot.
Tal Gor is an apostle, he and the others are the obvious “apostle reference” in the title.
However, For Mount Doom, Oracle is the title of the person (typically a D’Orc) in chage of a Doomalogue. Recall that the Dooms of each world were used for interplanar coordination, communication with Doom, D’Orcing etc. Tom tried to call it an embassy (which is really sort of is) and everyone went batshit in shock. So the Dooms were setup more as semi-religious temples, much to Orcus’ chagrin.
And so the head of the Doom was the Oracle, because he spoke for Orcus upon the plane.
[quote=Iume;5440]
Are Outer Planes infinite in size or is the size limited by the will of its owner? Some of the descriptions the outer planes make me wonder whether the Abyss was once an outer plane but was temporally locked during the Time Wars. Or whatever the fighting was called prior to the Concord of Conciliation being formed.
[/quote]Their functional size is limited by the will of its owner (or its owners) and can change as needed. I think of it as a spreadsheet (or database) with the capacity for infinite rows, columns, sheets. It can be infinite, but is finite until someone accesses (edits) a column/row/sheet further out and then you have to store the information for all the emptiness until you get to the used part. However, if you clear the far out data, and the intervening stuff has nothing in it, it will shrink back in size (or can be shrunk back in size)
[quote=Iume;5440]
If outer planes are a reflection of material planes what happens to a reflection based on a material plane that is destroyed?
[/quote]
Get the hell out, fast!No, they are not necessarily a reflection of a single material plane; they could be, I suppose, but typically they are reflections of all the planes a god works in/on. Another good reason to spread your worshipers out, outer plane stability.
[quote=Iume;5440]Tiernon did not detect Lilith sneaking into Tierhallon. Tizzy did not (presumably) detect Sentir Fallon sneaking into the Abyss when he visited Lilith.
It would seem that whether its ownership, age, experience, or some odd ability (I still say Tizzy was once the ruler of the Abyss) the ability to know if someone enters their domain is not infallible.
Therefore, what IS an outer plane and how does it work? Is Tierhallon the way it is simply because Tiernon is most powerful being in it or did he do something to stake a claim on control it?
Based on bk2 it is implied that an outer plane can “collapse” so it seems to be maintained by the will of its gods. Aetherus’s realm still exists though even without its god because (it is implied) the 5S are paying the upkeep.
[/quote]Yes, you are correct. A god (or gods) builds a plane and connects a source of mana to it. As long as the mana is available, the plane is active. Also there are avatars and souls in the Outer Plane (typically). If the place starts to collapse, they need to get the heck out. This is no problem for avatars, but can be a problem for mortal souls.
I think of it as sort of an extradimensional house/world. Burglers can break in.
Also, Tizzy detects “new arrivals” of whatever type. He does not detect everyone going in or out, he’d be even more distracted then he is now. Further he may not even pay attention to every new arrival, altough it rather sounds like he is. But we do know he doesn’t respond to every new arrival (e.g. Inferno)
[quote=Iume;5440]
If a god is a god because of their god pool then could any demon collect worshipers, build a god pool, and become a god?
Maybe start by pretending to be a small shrine deity, collect mana from pilgrims, use demon abilities to fulfill prayers, and eventually have enough mana to create an outer plane or somehow stake a claim on an outer plane?
[/quote]
In principle, yes, if they know how.That’s the big trick, you have to know how to do this, and it’s a very jealously guarded secret. It is not even clear to me, that all gods know how to do it. I suspect the parents may set it up for their children, like a savings account. Or perhaps someone in the pantheon does it. The reason I say this is because it’s very high level magineering, and there are a number of gods I can think of that would not be into doing that sort of thing, or capable of understanding it.
[quote=Iume;5440]
If a demon goes an outer plane does it break the binding that ties them to the Abyss? Are they no longer tied to any plane or does the binding that automatically returns them to the Abyss re-establish itself upon re-entering a material plane?
[/quote]
That’s an interesting question.Demons have the advantage of being self contained, they take their mana with them. So they can do it with no loss in power.
My guess is that if you kill one on the outer plane, they are dead and done for. However, if they return to Midgard, the link will automatically reestablish because the Abyss is literally such a big place that it can’t be missed.
This is also basically what is happening in Nysegard at the moment and Etterdam previously.
[quote=Iume;5440]
Does the Concord of Conciliation apply to gods who are not signatories? What about demons entering outer planes of non-signatories? Presumably the tribunal would simply says “tough luck”, but it does offer an opportunity for demons to enter an outer plane.
[/quote]Correct. The end stuff is going into a lot more detail on that. Orcus was not a signatory, therefore they were able to ignore his death by Sentir Fallon. Only if Zeus had pushed it, insisting Orcus belonged to the Olympians, would they have intervened. As it was, it was very close, if he had known about Eris things could have gone to the Tribunal. He’d have argued that the 5S had subverted/tricked Orcus, locked Eris up and then killed Orcus to cover their crimes.
[quote=Iume;5440]
If one is a god is it possible to setup a home in an outer plane without having worshipers? Or are worshipers a requirement?
[/quote]Worshpers are not required, but mana is. It takes a lot of mana, although you could probably get a studio apartment sized Outer Plane without one.
[quote=Iume;5440]
Does an outer plane actually even exist without a god to inhabit it?
[/quote]
If it has been constructed and has a mana supply, yes.[quote=Iume;5440]
Can anyone control an outer plane so long as they have enough mana? Is that the primary reason for worshipers? To gather enough mana to claim it, shape it, and maintain it?
[/quote]Not so much claim it as “create it” and yes, the mana is why they need worshipers.
The Doom experiment was a way to get mana without requiring worshipers.
[quote=Iume;5440]
Entropy. The material planes (and by extension the outer planes) are limited in their lifecycle, but are the elemental “planes” infinite in life?
[/quote]
The elemental planes are time invariant, i.e. there is no time on the elemental planes, which is why no life can exist there, and why there are no “true” elementals.
Time is purely a function of the Material Planes (and the Abyss), it exists in the Outer Planes as a reflection of the material planes.
[quote=Iume;5440]
How are localverses created? Is an infinite amount being born ever moment?[/quote]
[/quote]
No room in the database to store the answer to this question.
Some recycle, some do not, but I would argue that very few people have a good answer to this. If you beleive the stories, some gods are capable of creating material planes.
And its possible that some have created planes, but then other mortals and their deities start invading. I would imagine that if you create a material plane, it takes a lot of time to get it up and running, and once running, very difficult to stop, so if interlopers invade, you don’t have a lot of options, short of destroying it, which given expansion etc, may not be possible since it’s been generating order, harnessing chaos, the cost to destroy a universe is probably much greater than the cost of creating one.Then here is a twist. If a demon who is bound to an accursed master goes to an Outer Plane will their enslavement binding be broken for good?
Just pop over to an outer plane, lose the binding, pop back to the Abyss. If so, I’d imagine setting up a small waystation in the outer planes for demons wanting their freedom from an accursed master. Don’t know what it would do to his D’Orcs though given it was a consensual binding. Same I suppose.
[quote=The Author Guy;5446][quote=Iume;5440]
Can anyone control an outer plane so long as they have enough mana? Is that the primary reason for worshipers? To gather enough mana to claim it, shape it, and maintain it?
[/quote]Not so much claim it as “create it” and yes, the mana is why they need worshipers.
The Doom experiment was a way to get mana without requiring worshipers.
[/quote]So when Tom, Völund and Phaestus get to discussing things with Farsooth Goretusk, they come up with a significantly more economical way to set up an outer plane, as an informational / computational construct with significant abstraction, instead of faithfully emulating every physical process.
That way Tom can offer a budget afterlife by altering the computational speed at will, which wouldn’t be noticeable from the inside. He can store useful people, and pop them out of the can JIT to be recycled or ascended.
Not a god to be worshipped, but the manager of the finest free B&B in the localverse. It should be worth the minimal cost, since it makes recruitment so much cheaper.
[quote=Iume;5447]Then here is a twist. If a demon who is bound to an accursed master goes to an Outer Plane will their enslavement binding be broken for good?
Just pop over to an outer plane, lose the binding, pop back to the Abyss. If so, I’d imagine setting up a small waystation in the outer planes for demons wanting their freedom from an accursed master. Don’t know what it would do to his D’Orcs though given it was a consensual binding. Same I suppose.[/quote]
No such luck, those bindings are done using true names, and can find you (again) anywhere in the multiverse.
If the demon goes to the Outer Planes, the link to a wizard in Midgard is fine. Now, if the wizard somehow goes to the outer planes, say via astral projection, and the demon is in the Abyss, the link is broken until the wizard returns to the material plane.
If the demon locks the wizard in the Abyss, and then goes to the Outer Planes, he’s free in the Outer Planes, until he returns to either Midgard or the Abyss.
[quote=Mikey;5448]So when Tom, Völund and Phaestus get to discussing things with Farsooth Goretusk, they come up with a significantly more economical way to set up an outer plane, as an informational / computational construct with significant abstraction, instead of faithfully emulating every physical process.[/quote]
Sort of like a VHS, Virtual Heaven Server? An afterlife cloud to rest on in the “Cloud” so to speak?
[quote=The Author Guy;5446]Yes, you areAlso, Tizzy detects “new arrivals” of whatever type. He does not detect everyone going in or out, he’d be even more distracted then he is now. Further he may not even pay attention to every new arrival, altough it rather sounds like he is. But we do know he doesn’t respond to every new arival [/quote]
Why did Tizzy detect ‘Bes’ ariving in the Abyss then? we know he did because he visited her with cookies. She’s a god who entered the Abyss, not a newly formed Demon?
I mean new arrivals as in have never been there before, or not been there in the current cycle.
He’s admitted to detecting Talarius, of course he was with Talarius.
The gods like Bess were technically new arrivals because they did something like beragamos did, but instead of a human body they materialized as a demon.
Plus they kinda dropped a huge fortress in what might have been one day.
Tizzy being tizzy had to check something like that out.
Yes, I would think a bunch of gods dropping in, unexpectedly (and btw against the Concord) would be of some concern.
Which reminds me, does lilith know about skemet and the sphinxs fighting at Tom’s side?
Seems like an important detail she never thought about.
Not sure what the returning demons might have told her.
I imagine they would have mentioned the sphinxes and the really tall cat lady with the seriously hot breath.
However, I doubt they would have been able to name her.
Well who else can do the Egypt breath roar thing?
Imo it seemed Skemets special attack.
Other Gods could do it of course.
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