Editor Edition–ASAP
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[quote=The Author Guy;2680]
So I plan to restrict them to their mercenary portfolio, if you will. People call them in to bring about change and chaos; typically with quite a sacrifice. But again they are a two edge sword.
[/quote]
If they are bought, will they be keep bought? Otherwise as agents of change and chaos, I see them as natural allies for Tom.
Lillith is representing the old and crusty establishment here. :-kWith the above mentioned changes and an hiring scene, I think we will have enough information for them to keep them included.
If you going forward and include the battle you could start the next book before book 2 ends, with occationals references where the battle is time wise?[b]Edit:[/b][quote=Rosver;2683]
The same could actually be said with Asmeth and the Rogues. You could have just introduced them in a much more concisely than giving all those leghtly details that we ends up uninterested in, especially when they aren’t particularly interesting in the first place.[/quote]Those were already deleted in Beta 2.[quote=Rosver;2683]I am actually suggesting in reducing the book’s lenght since Beta 1, but I guess I should have been more detailed there.[/quote]Well if reducing the book takes as long as adding the battle to it, I’m all for the battle.[quote=Rosver;2683]We just hope that this would go well in the market. It is, after all, the final arbiter of the product.[/quote]Yes, so my vote is for an big battle at the end!Here is a change to 95.6 where Tom and the gang are exploring the crystal caverns and mention the “Demon Wars” and demon’s dying in the Abyss
New
[quote]“Why is there a portcullis in the middle of a cave passage?” Estrebrius asked.
“Were these caves once inhabited?” Antefalken asked.
“Are they still inhabited?” Rupert asked nervously.
“I hope not.” Reggie said nervously.
Tizzy shook his head. “Yes, there used to be some miners and others here, thousands of years ago. However, the entire region has been abandoned for at least thirty five hundred years if not more. Like I said, when I used to come here regularly, when I had people to visit, it was over four thousand years ago.”
“So why did they abandon it?” Boggy asked curiously.
“War, sort of a rout you might say.” Tizzy said examining the portcullis, shaking it for weakness.
“War?” Tom asked.
Tizzy shrugged, “War used to be pretty common in the Abyss. The demon princes, occasional dark demigods, Knights of Chaos and such enjoyed battling it out. Much like human princes. This place was abandoned about the time of the last major shakeup among the princes. Since that time most of the squabbles have stayed at the archdemon level or lower.”
Tizzy turned to Tom. “Can you try and lift this? I do not think it is locked down, just very rusty and heavy. Demons would have been fleeing out, rather than in so I doubt they locked the thing behind them.”
“Demon wars?” Rupert was looking very curious. “But if demons are fighting in the Abyss, and they die, they die permanently, right?”
Tizzy grinned and nodded. “If you kill them bad enough! If you chop up a demon, or a knight,” he glanced pointedly at Talarius, “beyond what they can regenerate and they die here; there is nowhere else to go.”
“So what happens to their animus and mana?” Tom asked as he tested the portcullis to see if he could lift it.
Tizzy shrugged, “Well if you’re lucky you just sort of dissipate or evaporate and it’s like going to sleep, I’m told. Less fortunately something powerful nearby eats your soul and consumes your mana.”
“Eats your soul?” Reggie asked with a tremor in his voice.
“Like Lilith or Sammael.” Antefalken stated.
“Or any demon prince, and some archdemons.” Boggy added.
“Ick.” Rupert said.
“Yeah, from the screams of the consumed souls, I’d have to say it isn’t pleasant.” Tizzy remarked as Tom grunted and lifted with his legs. There was a huge and painful screech and the portcullis lifted.
[/quote]Then at the end I have Antefalken chime in (still not smooth):
[quote]Tom was still grinning at Gastropé’s rather typical shocked reaction as a horrible gut wrenching wailing came from the portal. Everyone stared into the hole at the horrible, even painful wailing that came from the hole.
“Is someone torturing a Ban Sidhe in there?” Ragala-nargoloth asked covering her ears.
Tom followed his link to the command center. Vargg Agnoth was on duty. Suddenly, unconsciously on Tom’s part the gateway shifted to the command center. Those standing in Astlan were suddenly peering through the portal into the command center.
“What is going on?” Tom shouted through the portal.
“Radar has detected a large incoming force from Doom’s Redoubt!” Vargg yelled back. “A very large force, easily twice as big as what we believed they had available.” Tom shook his head; he had been worrying about this exact situation; everyone hung over and passed out; and now the enemy was attacking!
“Crap!” Tom shook his head. He looked to his shamans and wizards. “I have to return, you guys stay here; it is going to be far safer here.”
“Commander!” Some D’Orc that Tom did not immediately recognize, Darth Venstradt he believed shouted. “We are detecting signs of a Chaos Maelstrom!”
Vargg Agnoth cursed loudly using some word that Tom did not recognize.
“What’s a Chaos Maelstrom?” Tom asked.
Vargg turned to stare at Tom, his face a very unusual pale shade of green; if Tom did not know that D’Orcs were incapable of fear, he would have sworn the commander was giving him a look of terror. “It means Lilith is sending in the Knights of Chaos!”
“Holy fuck!” Antefalken moaned and rolled his head.
“What in the Abyss are Knights of Chaos?” Tom asked.
“They are enforcers, mercenaries, freelance knights. They are not, however, demons but something else, something worse from other end of the multiverse.” Antefalken said. “In legends they were occasionally employed by the Court to deal with rogue archdemons or rogue princes.” Antefalken shuddered, “I thought they were mere legend, they haven’t been deployed since the Great Demon Wars.”
“So what? The extra troops are all Knights of Chaos?” Tom asked. Vargg Agnoth made a very odd sound on the other side of the gateway. Antefalken’s eyes popped open wide.
“Concordenax forbid!” Antefalken exclaimed, his voice shaking slightly. “One Knight of Chaos is a match for an archdemon!”
“Ouch! How many do we think she’ll send?” Tom asked.
“It takes at least 13 to form a Maelstrom.” Vargg said. “And this looks like a big one.”
“Great.” Tom sighed feeling his stomach twist into knots.
[/quote]Does this help much? At all?
I think the early planted text is fine/good. What about the ending?
Assuming we don’t do the battle. That is in the voting.
Well, to the last point first.
Antefalken didn’t say they were from any particular plane; he said they are from the other end of the multiverse. Whatever that is.
They are actually plane independent agents in a very VERY Michael Moorcock sense of the word. (recalling that he invented the word ‘multiverse’)
I actually envisioned them for some short stories about the same time I started Book 1 and they were very Eternal Champion inspired and tied to “Chaos” which I haven’t applied that much to this storyverse, yet. (it’s a very big multiverse).
With Antimus and the darkness of the dagger we are seeing “Light vs Dark”, absolute “Good vs Evil” in some sense; to a world where good and evil are normally very subjective and extremely relative. Introducing the KofC gives an entry point to Law vs Anarchy; Order vs Chaos which are also polarized states, like the light vs dark polarization.
So anyway they are (in this storyverse) interdimensional mercenaries/agents and operate along rules very similar to demons. Just as demons can adapt to different rules, so can the KofC.
If I were to go “modern” think of them as multi-dimensional RAC Agents (albeit on the side of Chaos, not Law) ala SyFy’s the Killjoys. And not at all human. They are personifications of Anarchy, Destruction, Change and in large part this is why demon lords would only use them sparingly, you don’t want to upset the balance too much. KofC’s like to upset the balance; disrupt order, seed Chaos.
—
So…maybe I can figure some way to feed this sort of knowledge into the book sooner. Possibly with Lillith a Lillith hiring them scene…make it clear they are a very two edged sword, as dangerous for her to use as for Tom to be the brunt of.
Hmm, for example one thing I have not been clear on is how did so many D’Orcs get permanently wiped out at Etterdam? Perhaps some KofC?
Book 3 could end up being overstuffed with action scenes…unless things take long enough to make it to book 4…
Hi,
OK, Editor schedule is getting tight. I need to mostly wrap things up for her.
It doesn’t have to be set in total stone, but changes that happen after I send to her probably/may likely not be technically edited, which would mean I (we) would have to carefully review them to be spelling/grammer/construct good.
So the question is: Final thoughts on the ending and the KoC
1) Do we agree that getting rid of the beta 1&2 not-battle with the demons is good? Or do people think keeping that “integration” was better.
2) Can the KoC battle be pushed to book 3? If not, I am thinking the publication will have to shift by another month. (not opposed)
3) If we push KoC battle to book 3, I am concerned about the following
A) I don’t want KoC to be too much of a “tack on” in terms of feeling. i.e. annoying
B) On the other hand I don’t want to give too much away about the KoC, because that could “deintensify” things.
->So I need to balance that: How much more build up/background do I need for the KoC stuff not to seem like an “annoyance”Please give me any other thoughts. I am also still working through what to do about some other issues here and there, along the line of introspection and filling things out as people have mentioned.
T-A-G
[quote=The Author Guy;2659]
So the question is: Final thoughts on the ending and the KoC1) Do we agree that getting rid of the beta 1&2 not-battle with the demons is good? Or do people think keeping that “integration” was better.[/Quote]
I agree.
[quote=The Author Guy;2659]2) Can the KoC battle be pushed to book 3? If not, I am thinking the publication will have to shift by another month. (not opposed)[/Quote]
While I would like to see the battle, I’m not opposed to pushing it to book 3…
[quote=The Author Guy;2659]3) If we push KoC battle to book 3, I am concerned about the following
A) I don’t want KoC to be too much of a “tack on” in terms of feeling. i.e. annoying
B) On the other hand I don’t want to give too much away about the KoC, because that could “deintensify” things.
->So I need to balance that: How much more build up/background do I need for the KoC stuff not to seem like an “annoyance”[/Quote]
With the Scene changes below, it’s better, but I’m not shure how much better (after I read your post’s about the KoC on the Forum).
Maybe an scene with Lillith where she hires them?[quote=The Author Guy;2659]1) Do we agree that getting rid of the beta 1&2 not-battle with the demons is good? Or do people think keeping that “integration” was better.[/quote]
I agree
[quote=The Author Guy;2659]2) Can the KoC battle be pushed to book 3? If not, I am thinking the publication will have to shift by another month. (not opposed)[/quote]
Well, it would be an awesome start for book 3, but if you do it there will be no real highlight in book 2. In a way the original ending with the integration of the army was better ’cause it gave us something, a big event at the ending. On the other hand Lilith looked rather dumb since, even if the battle would have taken place, she would have wasted 2k demons for no real gain. i don’t think that would be any good for her political standing.
[quote=The Author Guy;2659]3) If we push KoC battle to book 3, I am concerned about the following
A) I don’t want KoC to be too much of a “tack on” in terms of feeling. i.e. annoying
B) On the other hand I don’t want to give too much away about the KoC, because that could “deintensify” things.
->So I need to balance that: How much more build up/background do I need for the KoC stuff not to seem like an “annoyance”[/quote]
It is hard to answer without reading it, but if you just say that the KoC are a great danger, but don’t explain why, well, it could get annoying. So maybe two short examples of their accomplishments with some connections to what we know so far[quote=Pathologic;2673]
It is hard to answer without reading it, but if you just say that the KoC are a great danger, but don’t explain why, well, it could get annoying. So maybe two short examples of their accomplishments with some connections to what we know so far
[/quote]Well he did a few word here, about the KoC:[quote=The Author Guy;2660]Then at the end I have Antefalken chime in (still not smooth):
[quote]Vargg turned to stare at Tom, his face a very unusual pale shade of green; if Tom did not know that D’Orcs were incapable of fear, he would have sworn the commander was giving him a look of terror. “It means Lilith is sending in the Knights of Chaos!”
“Holy fuck!” Antefalken moaned and rolled his head.
“What in the Abyss are Knights of Chaos?” Tom asked.
“They are enforcers, mercenaries, freelance knights. They are not, however, demons but something else, something worse from other end of the multiverse.” Antefalken said. [b]“In legends they were occasionally employed by the Court to deal with rogue archdemons or rogue princes.”[/b] Antefalken shuddered, “I thought they were mere legend, they haven’t been deployed since the Great Demon Wars.”
“So what? The extra troops are all Knights of Chaos?” Tom asked. Vargg Agnoth made a very odd sound on the other side of the gateway. Antefalken’s eyes popped open wide.
“Concordenax forbid!” Antefalken exclaimed, his voice shaking slightly. “[b]One Knight of Chaos is a match for an archdemon![/b]”
“Ouch! How many do we think she’ll send?” Tom asked.
“It takes at least 13 to form a Maelstrom.” Vargg said. “And this looks like a big one.”
“Great.” Tom sighed feeling his stomach twist into knots.
[/quote][/quote][b]Edit:[/b]
[quote=Pathologic;2673]
Well, it would be an awesome start for book 3, but if you do it there will be no real highlight in book 2.[/quote]
I’ll agree to this. While [i]I[/i] could live with the ending, this point is very true. And going back to the Version 2 of the non-battle is not an solution either (IMHO), since that was’nt an real Highlight…I must admit i didn’t read the two changes since i thought without the scenes before and after there won’t be any point in it.
However they give us some directions where they stand in the hierarchy of power, but like i said before hearing some of their accomplishments could be a lot more interesting, but also more boring.
but from what i gathered in the different planes apply different rules. Antefalke says that they are from a distant point of the multiverse, so how are they able to fight with the different set of rules? Wouldn’t a demon have a huge advantage?[quote=The Author Guy;2659]1) Do we agree that getting rid of the beta 1&2 not-battle with the demons is good?Or do people think keeping that “integration” was better.[/quote]
Agree.
[quote=The Author Guy;2659]2) Can the KoC battle be pushed to book 3?If not, I am thinking the publication will have to shift by another month.(not opposed)[/quote]
Of course it can be pushed to book 3 but I think it is better if it is included in Book 2. The problem is that Book 2, as of now, is that it doesn’t have anything solid to offer. It has potentials and concepts that remains insubstantial. The fight would at least put many of them on action and bring those concepts to life.
[quote=The Author Guy;2659]3) If we push KoC battle to book 3, I am concerned about the following
A)I don’t want KoC to be too much of a “tack on” in terms of feeling.i.e. annoying
B)On the other hand I don’t want to give too much away about the KoC, because that could “deintensify” things.
->So I need to balance that:How much more build up/background do I need for the KoC stuff not to seem like an “annoyance”[/quote]
A) It is annoying, as of now. Not only was a possibly most interesting thing in the entire book cut off… who the heck are they in the first place? They came out of nowhere. It really feels manipulative.B) I don’t really understand how withholding information could ‘intensify’ things, or giving important info ‘deintensify’ it. This is not a mystery book where the unknown, the mystery, drives the story forward. In fact, on those stories, information revealed makes the stakes go higher, and the tension more stronger. Also, I really feel that withholding info about them is just cheap.
———
By the way. Why did you use the term Knight? Do they have rules, ideals, and such? Rulers? Organization? Monarchy? Nobility?
Here is the point against giving [b]too much[/b] emphasis/detail about the Knights of Chaos too soon:
If I make a big deal out of them, people are going to expect to see them in this book. That is what I am talking about in terms of too much too soon as a spoiler. I think it could make things even more annoying.
As for why they are called Knights of Chaos? (without going into all the details)
They wear gleaming/glowing purplish black plate mail that is far more extensive then most platemail and they have rounded helms. Generally no surcoats.
They then have a large glowing reddish black Chaos emblem on their chests.
They typically right some form of “Nightmare” or fire breathing horse of very large stature. They use lances heavily on horseback, swords, shields, maces, flails etc. The steeds almost always have barding that matches the KofC’s armor. Almost all KofC’s look alike. (which is not very Chaotic…hmm)
So they look like stereotypical knights and they have a Chaos emblem on them so people call them Knights of Chaos. However, their code, if they have one is very dark and unlike any other code of Knighthood. Again, they are more likely to slaughter a widow, orphan or princess than rescue one (rescue in this case means ignore and let live)
They are agents of yet another group of players seeking multiversal influence/domination/destruction, but I don’t plan to get into that at this time. One threat to the multiverse at a time, please.
So I plan to restrict them to their mercenary portfolio, if you will. People call them in to bring about change and chaos; typically with quite a sacrifice. But again they are a two edge sword.
The full details of how they relate to Lillith, the Courts and Orcus is quite detailed and complex; which is why to do them justice, I am concerned about including the battle.
I say 70 to 100 extra pages, but I could see them doing a lot more, and i am concerned about finding a new breaking point between book 2 and 3.
As I’ve said; letting the battle happen moves me past several other cliff hangers and then we go into a very long plotline with the knights (if they are going to make sense) and suddenly the book is 300 pages longer and won’t be out until Xmas.
Would it not be better to break, and perhaps have a sooner book 3; maybe even a bit shorter book 3 of say 1/2 to 2/3’s the current books length if it gets us the battle and other things sooner. By which I mean 6 to 9 months from the release of book 2.
Other options include having a large army coming but not mention KofC until book 3?
If that is the case, not mentioning the KoC would be better… I think. If they won’t appear in the next book, then hints, rather than outright inclussion would work much better. But, then, it results to a rather dull book 2. If, that happens though, I would like it if you make book 2 be much shorter. In my mind, if this rather dull stuff has to pass, then make it as short as possible. Brevity would be its saving grace.
If I may suggest:
> Some of the D’Orcs POV could be removed. Many of them just makes the book thicker than it should be. One or two D’Orc’s POV is enough.
> Ruperts’ ‘adventure’ could also be removed and is instead be recounted by others, especially Tom. That way, we would know that Rupert is practicing his shapeshifting skills without really assigning several scenes to it… and thus less verbiage.
> Of course, Jenn and Gastrope’s treck, I feel that it could be quartered in length without much loss. The whole elevator, rollercoaster and sun bridge thing could be abridged in a just a few paragraphs and we would not miss it at all. There is also an earlier scenes where they walk allover the castle just to start their travel, that part could be axed out. While it gives us more details about the Castle, it is just not important.
> Vaselle’s POV could also be cut out, if you can’t downright remove him altogether. While he is an interesting character in a very interesting situation, knowing much about him now is pointless since he is just someone who do the shopping. You could just put him in the background at the moment and draw him out when he become important. Maybe in book 3, we could learn more about him there.
Again, a lot of this is time sequential.
We have people who will be important later and it gets very kludgy to back date them when they become important. I am already severely dreading the Asmeth and Rogue stuff. I may have to axe that entire plotline, which means more story work for the future in terms of the final end point. This isn’t end of world, because the ending hasn’t been written and things can change but even so it means rethinking plans, which means time.
Also, not sure how many D’Orc POV’s I have. Don’t think I have an D’Orc POV’s per se. Orcs, yes, D’Orcs not that I can think of.
Also removing people completely is very time consuming; actually all those shortening changes are very time consuming.
Just as time consuming as adding to the story, if not more so. Creating/adding is far easier than deleting and retconning.
Either route means we are looking at an Xmas release.
Oops! Orc’s POV, I kinda mixed them all up.
Well then, if that is the case, we have to be satisfied with mediocrity.
By the way, I’m not saying that you should remove these scenes but to imply or abridge them. For example, you can condense a lot of Jenn and Gastrope’s treck in a few paragraphs (especially the elevator and rollercoaster and the sun bridge) by just telling us instead of showing us the treck. Heck, you can even just turn it into one sentence… We ride a strange magicaly powered ‘lift’, then into a nausea inducing cart ride through the tunnels in the mountain and walk on the weird sun bride… and that is still able to encapsulate a lot of essense of that treck.
Rupert’s practice in shapeshifting could be implied, say a character close to Tom makes an observation about it and told Tom about it. That could still pass on important information about Rupert’s shapeshifting without using a dedicated POV and scenes for it.
I’m also not saying that you should remove characters, which I think you mean Vaselle. I just note the removal of Vaselle in this book since he downright wasted in here. You could just introduce him later in book 3 when he would be used properly. Or as I suggested, just not dedicate a POV to him since he is just a very minor character… albeit an interesting one. You could then update him later in book 3, where he would actually be of more major purpose.
The same could actually be said with Asmeth and the Rogues. You could have just introduced them in a much more concisely than giving all those leghtly details that we ends up uninterested in, especially when they aren’t particularly interesting in the first place.
I am actually suggesting in reducing the book’s lenght since Beta 1, but I guess I should have been more detailed there.
We just hope that this would go well in the market. It is, after all, the final arbiter of the product.
[quote]If they are bought, will they be keep bought? Otherwise as agents of change and chaos, I see them as natural allies for Tom.
Lillith is representing the old and crusty establishment here.[/quote]Please use the “spoiler” tag when giving away future story resolutions! [-x
Yes, you are very much correct. =d> That is why I am not so sure this is a perfect solution of a “big battle”. We know there are at least 13 KofC; I don’t think Tom can defeat them at this point, even with Sammael’s help (which is not clear he would get) I really need to go back to my notes on them, but as a rule, they make the Storm Liches fought by the Nimbus look like D&D Kobolds (tiny XP/EP packets that you suck up like sugar) in terms of immunity to about everything. (which is why they work on a lot of planes)
So there would be big battle with the demons, but the KofC are going to need special handling and a really giant rabbit pulled out of Tom’s hat.
So anyway, over the night I tossed and turned on how to do the big battle more succinctly. It’s going to be more of a thinking/plotting exercise than a writing one.
Be aware though, if we go this route I am going to have to use up the Ruiden and Talarius cliffhanger for sure; and start to deal with Hilda vs Jenn and Gastrope and the Orcs; sort of spoiling that one.
I think I would; however, move the Tizzy and Arg-nargoloth meeting until after the battle to preserve that one.
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